Where did the tuning C#Minor come from? Was it ever popular?

[George Rout]

Hi folks. When I first took Hawaiian guitar lessons in 1948, along with the A Major and E Major (and E7th) there was another tuning often listed on the TAB or music and that was C#Minor. See the attached page with Mary Lou. As you know, I've stuck mostly with the A Major and A6, E Major and E7 and some C6th.

Where did this C#Minor come from and did it ever become a popular tuning?

This question surely shows my ignorance of tunings in general!!!

Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks.



Geo

[Mike Neer]

Sol Hoopii used this tuning towards the end of his career. In fact, the guitar I was given of his by Ian Ufton had this tuning on it. I believe Ian kept it the in same tuning as Sol when he finally changed the strings.

[Nic Neufeld]

That looks to be one of the tunings that was popular back then (and sometimes attributed to Sol Hoopii?). I'm not an expert at all on those tunings but there's plenty of discussion here around those early tunings. Here's a nice and informative thread:
viewtopic.php?t=281635

I think that one is usually called the C#m7 (E-C#-G#-E-D-B) although I'm thinking that D doesn't fit anywhere in a C#m7...C#m7b9? Could also be thought of as an E6 tuning with a b7 (the D), so maybe a kind of E13?

Edit upon seeing above comment...really cool story Mike! Do you still get it out and play it?

[Fred Treece]

The copyright date on that arrangement is 1946. The C#m may appear to be an obvious misnomer now, but maybe the 13th chord extension had not been utilized at that point in time. Not to hijack the thread, but does anyone know when Leon McAuliffe started calling his tuning E13?

[Erv Niehaus]

I tuned one of the necks on my T-8 Stringmaster to a C#m7th tuning.
I put a B in after the C#.
You had kind of an E and an A tuning combined.
Erv

[Tim Whitlock]

I believe Santo played Sleepwalk in C#m tuning. Probably the highest charting and biggest selling steel guitar instrumental ever.

[Frank Welsh]

In a "Guitar Player" interview many years ago, Santo said he recorded "Sleepwalk" and "Tear Drop" in C#m7 tuning.

[David Matzenik]

Sam Koki's "Paradise Isle," composed for the movie of the same name in 1937, has to be one of the most famous C#m steel pieces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmZyWyuEbdM

[Tom Snook]

Dick McIntyre?

[Mike Neer]

The tuning in question is E C# G# E D B.

The bottom two strings differ from Sol's old C#min tuning. Some other folks like Dick McIntire modified the tuning to be F#9 by lowering strings 5 and 6 to C# and A#.

[Jeremy DeHart]

Here is an excerpt from Guy Cundell's excellent research from his "Across the Pacific" paper on Hawaiian music:

4.4.3 C# minor
Another influential tuning that was a product of the second generation of steel guitar players was a modified E tuning known as C# minor. Its invention is widely attributed to Sol Hoopii who used it, possibly for the first time, in his 1934 recording of ‘The Hula Blues’. This was one of the last secular recordings that he made using an acoustic resonating guitar. Subsequently he used the tuning on most of his final electrically amplified recordings. Through these widely distributed recordings, the attributes of the new tuning were amply demonstrated and, subsequently, widely adopted.

Also this section is of particular note:

A distinctive F#9 tuning was used by Charles Opunui in 1932 in recordings made with a Hawaiian trio, the Paradise Islanders in New Jersey. While this was an uncommon tuning, the chronology of its appearance clouds the origins of Hoopii’s 1934 C# minor tuning. The dozen songs recorded in the Paradise Islanders’ 1932 session consisted of simple Hawaiian hula ku’i and himeni songs and more harmonically complex contemporary popular tunes.

[Scott Thomas]

The tuning in question is E C# G# E D B.

Yes and when one considers the earlier high bass A tuning, E C# A E C# A it is a simple matter of a few adjustments. No string change necessary. I have read that Sol invented this tuning. This is according Bob Brozman in the liner notes of the two volume So Hoopii CD set on Rounder. He identifies C# minor on a version of Hula Blues which he alternately dates 1934 and 1933--so a typo somewhere. Anyway it's been around since the early '30s at least.

[Erv Niehaus]

I believe you need 8 strings when you vary from a straight major tuning otherwise your range is limited.
Erv

[Fred Treece]

The tuning in question is E C# G# E D B.

And the question is, where did it come from? And why is it called C#m and not E13?

The second line of tab for the sheet music in the OP includes tunings labeled E and E7. The E7 label obviously takes the bottom two strings into consideration. But the C#m label for the top tab ignores the B and D strings. B-D-E-G#-C#-E includes all the notes in an E13 chord, and I wonder why the tuning is not called that. Not losing sleep over the matter, just curious if anyone knows.

[Jeremy DeHart]

I would assume this was due to it being one of the first tunings with a minor triad on top. The C# minor tuning being it’s close relative but more styled after the high bass A with matching triads. This was used for Sol K. Brights version of La Rosita as Mike displays here:

https://youtu.be/vo55s6s9bmU

[Jeremy DeHart]

Another reason it was called C#m and not E6 is because as Guy points out in his paper the 6th was not generally accepted in the Jazz pantheon at that point meaning people didn’t really want to hear that interval. Kind of an archaic concept seeing as we now accept all intervals and so much more. But that is an interesting point Guy makes and he is citing Count Basie.

[Scott Thomas]

I have an old steel guitar folio which references what we commonly know as C6, but calls it A minor 7.

[Scott Thomas]

That looks to be one of the tunings that was popular back then (and sometimes attributed to Sol Hoopii?). I'm not an expert at all on those tunings but there's plenty of discussion here around those early tunings. Here's a nice and informative thread:
viewtopic.php?t=281635

That was worth a revisit. I'd almost forgotten my contributions to that thread (and the thread with the thread). Inception!

The Brozman citation is obviously my go to, but looking back I'm reminded that Mike Neer disputed the Hula Blues tuning as his C# minor. I have no reason to doubt him. It still puts Hoopii's first recorded version in 1935.

[Aaron Brownwood]

I've been learning from the Jerry Byrd book and it gives a great overview of these tunings. The way I understand the difference between C#m, C#m9, and E13 tunings is that while you could call one the other, there are distinctions between them. Here's the evolution of the E tunings as I understand it, all tunings Low to Hi and focusing on top 6 strings for simplicity, despite some tunings being 8 string.

E Major: EBEG#BE
E Dominant: EBDG#BE
C#m: BDEG#C#E
C#m9: BDF#G#C#E
E13: DEG#BC#E

They called it C#m because it was the first time you could get a minor triad at the bar. It's still key of E major but with a relative minor on top.

They called it C#m9 because they added a F#, or the 9 in E major. This name is confusing because the 9 does not relate to C#, but E.

They distinguished between C#m and E13 with E13 having both the B and C# on adjacent strings and the C#m just having C# on top and not B. Many people question why not call C#m an E13 and I think it's just this distinction of B and C# together or not.

[Tim Toberer]

They distinguished between C#m and E13 with E13 having both the B and C# on adjacent strings and the C#m just having C# on top and not B. Many people question why not call C#m an E13 and I think it's just this distinction of B and C# together or not.

This is an old post, but the confusion around E13, C#m etc. never seems to go away. I sure feel sorry for newcomers trying to make sense of this instrument. I know Guy Cundell explains this in detail in his research.
https://b0b.com/wp/articles/guy-cundell/

I get all this from a historical standpoint, but is anyone who is using this tuning really thinking in terms of C#m? E seems to be a much more logical reference. It's like calling A6, F#m tuning. It's actually a C#m7 chord. I think this just confuses everyone and we should just start calling it E6. Just my 2 cents.

I think the coolest thing about C#m tuning is its relationship to the Boggs E13, having G# C# E on top which seems illogical but results in such a classic sound. My thoughts are he learned on C#m and had all the muscle memory for the top notes and built the rest from there. I guess maybe this seems obvious, but it took me a bit to figure that out.

[Joe A. Roberts]

C#min low bass came before the high bass version with the D string. While really an E6th, this tuning actually can “correctly” be called C#min:
E
C#
G#
E
B
E

By that time in the early-mid 30s, A high-bass had practically became the standard by top players:
E
C#
A
E
C#
A

Around that time, E7th became hugely popular as well, with some like Dick McIntire using a low bass version (which makes sense becaude his F#9th was a low bass tuning).
E
B
G#
D
B
E

But others like Alveno Rey, Roger Filberto, and Roy Smeck used a version using the same string gauges as A high bass.
E
B
G#
E
D
B

Someone must have tuned to C#minor from that E7th and discovered that not lowering the D to C# sounded better and yielded a new, beautiful tuning.

There must have been some confusiom coming from a 7th tuning, to a C#m tuning and the names were combined to be “C#m7th”
E
C#
G#
E
D
B

Eddie Alkire used and taught this as the “best” tuning before inventing the E-harp tuning.
He must of realized the naming discrepancy; he called it “E13th (Combining C# minor with E7th)”

Of the tuning he said:
“It is the tuning which nearly all professional and advanced players eventually adopt and feature. This latest most modern tuning combined many of the good features of all tunings

Five of the strings 65431 correspond with E7th
Four of the strings 4321 correspond with C#minor
Three of the strings 421 correspond with A major

Thus the range of Harmonies is considerably greater.
Such frequently used chords as Minor, Major, Minor added 6th, Major added 6th, Dom. 13th, Dom. 9th, Dom. 7th, Dom. 7th aug. are playable in the E13th tuning.

Whether you are studying as a hobby, for a teaching career, for solo work, or an orchestra job, you will want to concentrate on this Tuning.

Note to E7th Players: You can easily tune to E13th.
Sound a harmonic on the G# third string at 5, Raise the B 2nd string (one tone to C#) until a harmonic at 12 is in unison.

YOU WILL ENJOY THE ADDED HARMONIC POSSIBILITIES!”

——————

Some other advantages that weren’t mentioned:

1. minor and major thirds are playable on the top 2 strings with only forward slants (unlike C6th which requires backwards slants)

2. minor and major sixths are playable on strings 1 and 3 only going up one fret on the top string (unlike A tunings which need a two fret span)

3. forward slant on strings 5 4 and 3 gives you the root on top major triad from E7th, and makes the high B string less necessary (adding that B string also messes up the Paradise Isle 9th chord forward slant on the top 3 strings)

4. split forward slant on those same strings 5 4 and 3 give you the root position minor triad like the top 3 of C6th.

5. forward slant on bottom 3 strings gives you a root position major. If you combine that with the previous slant (so a split forward slant on the bottom 4) you get a rare root position major 7th.

I think the tuning may scare people off because like C6th, when you try it for the first time all you hear is 6th chord Hawaiian stuff (which is great but not always what you may want)

But like C6th the tuning is more versatile than it seems. Here are two versions of a similar ending:

Code: Select all

12/ 10  x  3/ 15
11/ 10 10  3/ 15
10/ 10 10  3/ 15
x   x  10  x  x 
x   x  10  x  x
x   x  10  x  x

Code: Select all

12/ 10  x  x  x  15
x   x   x  x  x  x
11/ 10 10/ 11/15---
x   x  10/ 10/15---
10/ 10 10/ 9 /15---
x   x   x  x  x  x

The first one really expresses the tuning's inherent, very colored character.
However, the second one sounds more major, and isn't obviously a 13th tuning.

It really might be my favorite 6 string tuning. If all I had was a six-shooter it's what I'd use.
I'd recommend anyone to give it a shot and go get that orchestra job that Eddie Alkire mentioned!!

[Fred Treece]

It really might be my favorite 6 string tuning. If all I had was a six-shooter it's what I'd use.
I'd recommend anyone to give it a shot and go get that orchestra job that Eddie Alkire mentioned!!

Now THAT’S funny! I’m gonna go pull two strings offa the back neck of my Stringmaster, get tuned up, and head over to Symphony Hall right now

[Aaron Brownwood]

I hadn't seen someone describe it the way I did so thought others would benefit too! I have seen all the related posts over the decades and I wanted to help future Steelers looking for this answer.

It was called C#m because until then, you didn't have a minor triad with a straight bar. It was a big deal at the time, so people were absolutely thinking about the tuning in terms of a minor chord. The whole point of the tuning was to get a minor chord. It wasn't used as a 6th chord primarily and so the name C#m makes more sense.

[Tim Toberer]

It was called C#m because until then, you didn't have a minor triad with a straight bar. It was a big deal at the time, so people were absolutely thinking about the tuning in terms of a minor chord. The whole point of the tuning was to get a minor chord. It wasn't used as a 6th chord primarily and so the name C#m makes more sense.

That is a good point about having the minor triad. I hadn't thought of it that way. I appreciate the information and thanks for sharing this! I don't see anyone giving up the C#m name, and for historical purposes that makes sense.

I did a little search and found a couple related threads. This has been argued over before, not trying to start that. I find all this tuning stuff fascinating, but for the non steel guitar geeks, I think it must be bigly confusing. In my mind it just makes more sense to call it an E6 tuning, especially the Hoopii version with the low E. Either way it is an inversion tuning. I was unaware that it wasn't used in an E context? Mostly I just noodle around with it. It is a really fun tuning and it instantly screams old hip Hawaiian. It is definitely a gateway drug for E13.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtop ... 028e09a46e
https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=100600

[Aaron Brownwood]

Thanks Tim, I appreciate your replies. I had an AH Ha moment finally and wanted to share in case it helped others. Been playing PSG for a long time but just started 8 string lap steel and going through many tunings. It's a rabbit hole and it's so fun. You're right that minor triad screams old school jazzy Hawaiian.

As far as practical use of the E13 tunings, it's hard for me because I can't also retune that neck to another tuning, having the B and C# together makes other E tunings impossible I think? Correct me if wrong. But I like to play C#m and E7 just by changing the C# down to B. This is where the A pedal on PSG comes from essentially. Retuning E7 to C#m.