Amp Questions

[Avery Bradshaw]

I realized I posted this on the wrong part of the forum earlier. Anyway, here's my plight:

I am looking for a new amp. My current setup is a Mullen Discovery played through a 70s Fender silver face twin. The problem I am running into is that I cant get the low end that I want out of the twin. When I play my guitars through it I have no problems but for some reason, my steel has very little bottom end even with the lows cranked wide open.

I have narrowed my choices down (based on my limited budget from the wife) to a Quilter Steelair or the Travis Toy Quilter model. Does anyone have experience with either of these that could offer some input? Thank you!

[Jeff Harbour]

I don't have experience with Quilter amps, but I have some less-expensive solutions that may be all you need.

First... the pickup. I don't know what the Discovery is equipped with, but I know that I put a used George L's E66 (purchased here from a forum member for $50) in a backup steel that had a low-quality pickup installed. It made a world of difference!

Another thing to consider is speakers. I had to replace a blown amp speaker a few years back. With no factory replacement available, I decided to buy an Eminence Beta full-range PA Speaker. The change noticeably increased the low-end capability of the amp (which is a Roland), even down to the very low G using a pedal on the Bb6 tuning. I believe one speaker was around $100, maybe $150... but definitely less than an amp!

I would think that the Fender would be plenty capable, and that something else is limiting you... maybe I'm wrong.

Good luck!

[Avery Bradshaw]

Jeff,

I appreciate your input! A pickup change may be what I need. I would assume the Discovery models are equipped with a lesser quality pickup than the G2s or RPs.

I've strongly considered changing the speakers as well. The only thing holding me back is that I like the tone I get with my electric guitar through the amp. And most of the gigs I do, I am pulling double duty between steel and guitar so I like to use the same amp if possible to save on load in time and weight.

In the end, it may be something else in the signal chain. I just realized I haven't checked my volume pedal or tried to play any without it in the chain. I might give that a go first because I believe that the Hiltons have a tone control, but I may be wrong on that. I appreciate your help!

[Ian Rae]

My first amp was a Fender which was plenty loud and clean, but I found it harsh. It was clearly designed to get the best out a six-string.

I am much happier with a Telonics, which is pretty much a loud hi-fi.

But as said already, there will be cheaper ones that are good for steel.

[Steve Schmidt]

OK, I happen to think you just can't get a better amp to play thru for steel guitar than a twin reverb. 70's silverface twins are great. If you are savvy enough, I would consider making a new baffle for a 15" and getting one of the Travis Toy 15" speakers. don't give up on the twin. I have two of them

[Jim Cooley]

Avery,

You should be able to get all the lows you want from your Twin. It might help to understand the tone stack. Vintage Fender tone pots were not linear, meaning a setting on 2 does not give you twice the increase over 1 etc. The way Twins were built, the usable Bass for most players kicks in at around 3 and maxes out around 4 1/2. Bass settings higher than that usually create the perception of more bass volume, but generally makes the tone sound muddier, fuzzier etc. Turning up the Treble also increases the Mid, and vice versa, although not in equal amounts. While the Treble and Mids do not directly affect the Bass, more of one can make the Bass sound punchier, or like having more growl. Different players like different tone, and we hear sounds differently. So while the above is true, it is often perceived differently by different people. Then there are the guitar, pickup, speaker(s), volume pedal, room. Here's a link to a tone stack page with an app you can download at the bottom of the page. There are others. This illustrates the relationships between settings on several amps.

http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/

I don't know what tone you're looking for, but try this. Set the Treble on 4-5, the Mid around 3, and the Bass around 4. Adjust from there. You can try turning The Treble, Mids, and Bass all the way down. Then turn the Bass up until it sounds too boomy, or starts to get muddy. Then turn it back down until you like it. Several players like to really crank the Mids and set the Bass and Treble pretty low, around 3 or so. One technique I like to try regardless of amp is to turn all tone settings all the way down. Crank the Mids until you like them, then adjust the others. It doesn't necessarily work with all amps or for everybody because technology and ears vary, but it can be interesting.

Are you plugging your steel into the Normal or Vibrato channel? Have you experimented with the Bright switch?

We are all different. Some really accomplished players will agree with what I said here. Some won't. It doesn't really matter. What's important is what sounds good to you. If it does, it is.

I have both the Steelaire and Quilter 202. I like both. They are similar yet very different. Here we go again.

[Ron Pruter]

Avery,
I just returned a Quilter Pro Block 200 to Guitar Center. It's not the one previously mentioned. The 200 has much less versatility in the EQ. Only cuts, no boosts. A pretty good sounding guitar amp but to my ears, a bad steel amp. I wanted less highs and more bass(fullness). Ron

[Dave Meis]

I'm with Jim C. on this one... start with everything off and volume at 5. Turn the mids up until they get too bright to suit you, then the bass until it just starts to get muddy. At this point, add enough treble to get some 'glass' on the top. Reducing the mids will remove excess high mids and make room for the treble... the mids get brighter as they go up, so it's a balancing act between the treble and mids... but I leave the treble off until I get the mid-bass balance, then put the 'glass' on top, and reduce the mids to compensate . I know it doesn't mean anything, but I run mine in the neighborhood of T3, M8-9, B4.
I think the SF Twins are the shizzle! The interactive tone stack is VERY capable! With a little knob fiddling, you'll find GREAT string separation.
Hope this helps..

[Donny Hinson]

Fender's tone stack relies heavily on cutting the mids to get really good bass response. My starting settings are usually treble 3-4, mids 1-2, and bass at least 5-6. Then, adjust your overall sound just by using the treble control.

(Remember to keep the amp volumes relatively high!)

[Jim Cooley]

There's also the relationship between the Master Volume and individual channel Volume pots. Turning the Master all the way up and adjusting the volume as needed results in more clean sound for steel.

[Avery Bradshaw]

Thank you all so much for the help!

Jim, I think now I understand what the tone stack in the amp is doing and that has helped me. I was looking at it the wrong way. Per the advice, I started with my tone controls all set at zero and worked from there and I think I have found what I like now. I believe what was missing in my equation was my mids. I am setting those higher than I used to and it seems like I am on the right track. To answer your question about what channel I use: I use the normal channel for my steel and the vibrato channel for my tele and 335. I don't know if all of the twins are like this, but mine allows me to have reverb on both channels. It works out great for using both sides of the amp on the same gig. I will occasionally use the bright switch on the vibrato side, but I haven't explored that with my steel yet. My amp also has a master volume with a push pull knob. I've tried pulling the knob out but I can't seem to tell any difference that it makes in the tone so I believe it must have been disabled.

Dave, I have found out tonight that I believe running my mids around the range that you do is what I was looking for. I appreciate the info on that.

All in all, I don't think I am going to need another amp and that has made me really happy. I've gotten used to using this one amp with my tele and my steel and it saves me a lot of packing. I appreciate everyones help on this! I'm only about two years into steel so I need all the help I can get.

[Dave Meis]

I have a few old Fender amps (BF &l SF), and they’re all a little different. Lots of component drift after 40-50 years! The SF’s seem to have a lot of mid cut built in, and I like that for lap and armpit guitar (5-7K), but it seems that when the mids are at a higher number on the dial, it’s still like the mid cut on a Peavey... (it’s just a number) Kinda like setting the mids for the basic volume and using the bass and treble to dial in the center frequency.. kinda.
A while back, someone on here was describing the bright switch as only restoring the highs at low volume, and was basically ineffective at higher volumes.. dunno, but I do use it sometimes at practice volumes and can definitely hear the ‘glass’ much better, and if I set the highs for practice volumes, it can be like an ice pick at stage volumes...
I’m SO GLAD that these things have knobs! Something for everyone!

[Michael Brebes]

Yes, the Bright switch bleeds highs across the high and wiper of the Volume control, so higher the Volume lower the amount of bleed. On a SF Twin with a Master Volume, there is a bright circuit across the pot which makes the sound brighter when the MV is turned down from 10. I usually recommending cutting that capacitor off so the tone stays consistent.

The Fender tone stack is an odd one. The Bass and Mid controls are grouped together. The Treble control is actually a balance control between the Treble and the Bass/Mid combo.

[Eric OHara]

If you know someone with a graphic Or parametric EQ pedal you could try it in the signal chain - set it for how you want your steel to sound and turn it off when you play guitar. If it works you can pick one up for under $100. Might work. So darn many variables as always … EO

[ajm]

Eric beat me to it.

Try to get your hands on a Boss GE-7.
EQ, boosting, buffering.
It doesn't do e-mail pr laundry or windows, though.

But anyway, it sounds like you solved your problem with the EQ settings.

Someone else also made a good point.
If you're not going for overdrive/distortion, make sure that the Master Volume is turned up.
That one thing can transform a Twin Reverb from a cardboard box with speakers into a Twin Reverb.
I've seen it happen.

[rick andrews]

Avery,

I am playing through a steelaire rackmount with a 15 inch telonics speaker and cabinet. It has plenty of the bass response.

Of course tone is subjective but I am happy with this combination.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

I use a Steelaire, and I'm very happy with it. It took a while for me to dial in the tone.

I have 2 Millenniums and while they are identical in every other way (besides the color) they have different pickups, and different volume pedals attached to the pedal rack. One has an Alumitone and a Telonics volume pedal, the other has a Telonics pickup and an Ernie Ball pedal.

They sound totally different.

The pickup and volume pedal make a HUGE impact on the ultimate tone.

[Jerry Van Hoose]

It’s been my experience, however limited, that Mullen single coil pickups, whether RP, G2 or Discovery are of the highest quality and tonal range for their particular model guitar.

[George Kimery]

Another avenue to consider.Try a Sarno Freeloader. It clips to the leg of your guitar and has a rotary knob control which change's the load on the pickup.It's a tone control but works different than an amp tone control. You don't need one if you have a Black Box with a variable Z control. It has the Freeloader built in. This is also a great way to go with an amp that is too bright.

[Jim Bloomfield]

Keep in mind that an E9 steel guitar is very bright by its own nature. That's why we love it. The 10th string is likely only a .038, comparable to the 5th string on your tele. It is not a very bassy instrument. C6 is a whole different story...

[Dave Mudgett]

Sounds like you're on the right track. I have never needed an EQ with a Twin Reverb. If dialed in, they sound great with steel to me. It's an easy mod to put reverb on both channels, lots of people have done it. Another trick is to put in a switch (usually done with a switching pot on the Tremelo Intensity pot) to disable the Tremelo, which gives some extra oomph to the Vibrato channel, which BTW I always use for pedal steel, relegating guitar to the Normal channel. Technically there's no difference, but there must be some because I've always been happier with steel in the Vibrato channel.

I agree with Jim C. on using something like the Duncan Tone Stack Calculator to look at the frequency response of the amp. The blackface/silverface Twin Reverb tone stack is a bit counter-intuitive because the controls, especially mid and treble, are so interactive. I wrote a MATLAB program years ago to do this because it was driving me crazy, and that Duncan calculator seems to be in the same range as what I computed back then.

I generally start here - Treble 3, Mid 8, and Bass 2-3, Bright switches OFF, Master Volume (if present) all the way up, and Volume at least 5-6, which gives a pretty even bass and treble with a moderate but not ridiculous mid-scoop. You can see that on the tone stack calculator, and it really does work in practice. Then I adjust from there - there are times I'm gonna want more bass, sometimes more treble to cut through, and sometimes I'll add or subtract a bit of mids - the exact settings may vary for different situations and settings on the Volume knob. But from that initial position, the bass and treble controls especially are very reactive.

There's essentially no way to completely cut out that mid-scoop on a Twin without adding external EQ. But I guess that's what a lot of us love about Twin Reverbs. At least, I do.

I use a bunch of different amps for different situations - if you're looking for something lightweight that will get the job done, I've been using a Quilter Tone Block 201 that I got recently when one of the big box stores was blowing them out for $249. The Pro Block 200 and Tone Block 202 are also good, but I couldn't pass up that deal. They're around 4.5 pounds with 200 Watts RMS and actually sound quite good for steel to me, and I'm an old tube amp junkie. I sometimes run it into a lightweight speaker cab with a high-power/headroom speaker, and sometimes set it on top of one of my Fender combos and run the Quilter directly into that speaker set. In the latter case, it's a bit of a pain to switch from the internal Fender amp (for guitar) from the Quilter (for steel), but if I have 10-20 seconds to do it, it works. But I'm not even unhappy with the sound of my guitars through the Quilter.

[Pete Burak]

You should try your Steel with a Peavey Nashville 400. It's the workhorse of the Steel industry.
fwiw, I have never seen a Twin Reverb in the Mullen Demo room, or really anywhere, at Steel Conventions.
To my ear, Fender Twin Reverbs are too treble-ee for Steel. I agree, sometimes I find a Twin that sounds good for Steel and has a good reverb for Steel, but mainly they're just too treble-ee to my ear. I've had best luck by cranking the volume way up and then the tone knobs are on the 0-3 range, to find a Steel Tone. Uugh.
I personally don't want to deal with the Fender Tone Stack intricacies for Pedal Steel on a gig.
They do sound great for electric guitar though, and I have a few of them here at the house, mainly for guitar.
I try them for Steel sometimes, but I hate being on a gig and not having enough low end on my Steel, which has happened with a Twin Reverb, but has never happened with a Nashville 400.
I am a weekend warrior with 40 years of gigging and trying out pretty much everything that gets mentioned here on the forum. The Nashville 400 is just plain the easiest amp to gig with for Steel. If I want a Tube in my rig, I use Steel Guitar Black Box.

fwiw, Buddy Cage told us he sets all tone knobs on a Fender Twin on 7, and plays the gig.

[James Holland]

The problem I am running into is that I cant get the low end that I want out of the twin. When I play my guitars through it I have no problems but for some reason, my steel has very little bottom end even with the lows cranked wide open.

In case you haven't fully resolved your balance issue:

I've always gotten good low end from an E9 thru a Twin, and I've doubled steel with a lot of instruments, teles included. Are you using the same cables? Volume pedal? Impedance box? Anything different that could be darkening the guitar signal, or adding a tone circuit[high pass filter] to your Mullen? I think you already addressed these, but keep circling back till you get what you want.

Are you playing guitars with darker pickups, such as higher output humbuckers, that are making your Mullen single coil sound bright? You mentioned a 335. Its surprising how bright a single coil sounds, after you've dialed in higher output humbuckers. Are you rolling back the tone on the tele to match the 335?

It sounds like you are closer. I'm usually quick to encourage the easiest things first like dialing in the eq on both the amp and the guitar, pre-amp matching, etc, its so much cheaper when it works

[Ian Worley]

Avery, something you might try is running a cooler tube in V2 (assuming you use the vibrato channel). The thing about a twin reverb is they have way more power than most of us really need. Using a 12AY7 provides only about 40% of the gain you get from a 12AX7. Unless you play in an extremely loud band you will still have plenty of very clean headroom on the back end, but the volume control on the front end becomes much more useful and responsive as it is pushing less gain into the next stage. It's the opposite of the Spinal Tap mod. This also reduces the effect of the bright switch to an extent as you will run the volume knob at a higher setting than with a 12AX7. I run a 12AY7 in V2 in my old beater '66 blackface TR and it works very well. 'Tone' is highly subjective, but what I get is very smooth to my ears and very much to my liking.

Low end response in most amps is affected by a number of things, but relative volume is a big one. Running the mid control relatively high as Dave Mudgett suggests makes the treble and bass controls much more responsive. The mid control in the Fender tone stack isn't terribly intuitive. Adjusting the mids directly alters the frequencies that the bass and treble knobs control. The frequencies affected by your treble and bass controls with the mid control on 8 or 9 are quite different than their effect with the mid control set to 1 or 2. When treble and bass are both set to -0- the mid control is essentially just a volume knob, bleeding everything off to ground at -0-.

I've posted this here before, but Rob Robinette has an excellent article explaining the ins, outs and quirks of the Fender tone stack: https://robrobinette.com/How_The_TMB_To ... _Works.htm. It's definitely a worthwhile read for any Fender or similar amp owner.

[Tony Prior]

Joining this party late. A few thoughts from a lifelong Twin and N400 user. first things first.

Been using Twins since 1970, several inbetween, Never heard of a Twin that couldn't deliver the bottom end. Something is amiss.

Lets start with a SF Twin that has so called relaxed Bass response. Considering the amp is in the 40 + year old range, change the E Caps. E Caps historically have a 15 year life and when they start to DRAIN, the lo end is the first thing to go.

And what PUPS are in your Steel ? How far away from the strings are they set ?

Speaking of the Steel, how old are your strings ?

As mentioned way above, Fenders Tone Stacks are not your vanilla style Bass, Mid, Treble. This is one of the reasons so many players use them.

This is a very easy test of performance . Put everything at zero. Turn the volume UP to 50% . What do you hear , What does it sound like ? Slowly turn each of the EQ knobs up one at a time to 50% , all of a sudden when they are ALL interactive at 50% your sound goes from where is it ... to WOW ! its' starting to sound pretty darn good and now its friggin loud ! Now I have to turn the volume DOWN. Now turn each EQ knob, one at a time back to zero and make note of how each one interacts with the others. This is how an interactive TONE STACK is supposed to work.

If executing this little exercise bears no fruit the amp may need maintenance. If its an older amp, such as a SF, it may need something as simple as E Caps which is the heart of the 465 VDC Power supply. We tune our guitars, we also need to tune our amps.

Ok then , even if everything works as NORMAL , it is always highly possible that our guitars ( certain guitars) need an EQ push here or there. Grab a 7 band EQ. and stick it on the front end. As stated above.

I have an amp I love, a Carvin Nomad, its a 4xEL84 , 50 watt with 1 x 12. Just because of its nature , the low end response is just short of what I like with the Legrande II. But its perfect for the Tele's. Enter in the EQ pedal for the Steel.

More on this in another thread I have started.

viewtopic.php?p=2911069#2911069

Changing amps may not be the solution, changing the way we use an amp may very well be. Then add that changing amps may introduce whole new set of questions .