Do all steels sound the same?

Ken Thompson · Post by **Ken Thompson** » 1 Nov 2006 9:33 am

That should generate some conversation.

I posted a question on another thread regarding timbre and sound in steels. I received several reponses both on the forum and personal email.

The one question not answered, and a question that I find very interesting is this;

Do different brands of steel have a sound, be that timbre, softness, harshness, thickness, or any other term, that sets them a part from other steels? Basically, can you identify a steel by just hearing it if you cannot see it?

If the answer is no, can we deduct that the steel is so influenced by the amps, amp settings, effects and player that basically all steels, in terms of sound, are equal?

thoughts......

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 1 Nov 2006 10:01 am

Different steels have different sounds and feel. With that I think you are on a track that leads nowhere by looking for tone in gear. The steel is different than regular guitar. The tone is much more dependent on personal touch than equipment. Once you are capable of making any steel sound good with your hands you can start to take advantage of the differences in steels and amps.

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Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

Pete Blakeslee · Post by **Pete Blakeslee** » 1 Nov 2006 10:16 am

Seems to me I remember reading that Reece Anderson did a study of this one time. You might ask him.

Pete Blakeslee
Lincoln, NE

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 1 Nov 2006 10:30 am

Every steel guitar sounds different. The black ones sound best.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 Nov 2006 10:39 am

Yeah, but for most modern steels it is way more subtle than you would think from hearing all the comments from players. Pickups, string freshness, hand technique, volume pedal technique, and amp settings can trump the subtle differences - so, a blind listener test would be very difficult to set up.

I have tried Emmons p/p, Fessy, Zum, Sho-Bud Pro III, Carter, GFI, BMI, Excel, various MSA '70s-'80s models, MSA Millennium, and probably a few others I forget. The Emmons p/p is the only one that stands out as really special. It has a brightness, rich overtones, string separation (probably from the overtones) and sustain that seem noticeably different. It would take very good recording and playback equipment for a listener to hear the difference. But a player can feel the difference. For example, it just seems to take less pumping of the volume pedal to get sustain. On the others I would automatically pump the pedal further, so the listener would not hear a difference. But I would feel it. When people talk about "that Sho-Bud tone" or "Fessy" or "Zum" tone, etc. I have no clue what they mean. When they talk about the push/pull tone, I know exactly what they mean. However, even the p/p tone difference is not so great that it overcomes the mechanical difficulties. These days all the currently manufactured brands sound good, and I tend to choose on the basis of mechanics and playability. There's not enough difference in tone to be a deal breaker.

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 1 Nov 2006 10:50 am

Ken,
I'd say yes. Different brands have their own characteristic tonalities just like 6 string electrics...they may be subtle, but they're there.

If you run various guitars directly into an amp with nothing in between, not even a VP, you'll here the differences. Nowadays there is often so much gear incorporated into a rig that the original sound of the guitar is hidden.

That's not knocking the gear, it performs an important function many times. But I'm a firm believer in having a guitar that sounds great by itself FIRST....THEN I can add whatever effects I might need.

Tracy Sheehan · Post by **Tracy Sheehan** » 1 Nov 2006 11:40 am

I am going to paint my fiddle black.Wonder if it will make me sound like Jascha Heifest?

Ken Thompson · Post by **Ken Thompson** » 1 Nov 2006 11:57 am

Dave, I totally agree.

Mike, I agree with you as well.

It just seems to me that all the steels being built today are great pieces of work. Coupled with our propensity to add all the gear to them we basically delute whatever quality (sound wise) that set them apart.

I enjoy listening to the different audio and video recordings that players put on the internet. I have heard two different players play a Zum, MSA, or any other guitar and the sound they get is totally different from the other player. Don't misunderstand, not better or worse, just different.

It just got me to thinking that if all the above factors negate the originality of the steel then we must be selecting our steels by the mechanical options we favor, feel of the instrument, the looks that we favor or just the name. Or anything black, haha.

It's all good. Love the steel. I wish I could afford several of them.

C. Christofferson · Post by **C. Christofferson** » 1 Nov 2006 12:19 pm

K , as far as 'processed' tone goes , one thing that may make a difference, if you ever have the chance to compare, is to find effects which are 'old time' analog as opposed to digital. The newest digital stuff is, of course, pretty sweet. But the analog circuitry reverbs and delays (and choruses) have always been warm and mellow, whereas sometimes the older digital circuitry really robbed the instrument of its true tone and the result was a thin, edgy, what i call sandpapery sound. Used to drive me up the wall when my guitarist friends were all psyched up over their new digitech or whatever stompers when all the time they seemed oblivious to the raspy thin sound it was creating.

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 1 Nov 2006 2:10 pm

Do all steels sound the same?

Yes, they all sound exactly the same. Don't know why they don't just make 'em all in one place and slap a different decal on for each distributor. It's only the pickups, the player, and the amp settings that make any difference, so get the cheapest one you can find, slap a new pickup in it, and tweak away.[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 01 November 2006 at 02:12 PM.]

A. J. Schobert · Post by **A. J. Schobert** » 1 Nov 2006 2:13 pm

Ken I honestly would say "tone" is in the hands, once you overcome that then you may hear differences, or would they just be the different pickups that you hear? If all manufactures would be so kind as to send a laquer D10 to me (email) I would be willing to experiment with this further, thank you.

Ken Thompson · Post by **Ken Thompson** » 1 Nov 2006 2:25 pm

Pat, that is exactly the answer I was looking for!!@!

I had to find some way to justify buying the cheapest one I could afford. They're all the same anyway.

hahahah

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 1 Nov 2006 3:17 pm

The answer is "NO" because all players don't sound the same!!

tbhenry aka Thomas brian Henry[This message was edited by tbhenry on 05 November 2006 at 05:42 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 1 Nov 2006 5:17 pm

It just got me to thinking that if all the above factors negate the originality of the steel then we must be selecting our steels by the mechanical options we favor, feel of the instrument, the looks that we favor or just the name.

You forgot the most significant factor, Ken! Most amateur players choose based on "so-and-so plays one" principle. They hear a famous player, and they think that if they just buy the same brand he uses, that they will then automatically sound just as good. Great logic, isn't it?

"Sure! Just use the same brand of paint brushes that Leonardo DaVinci used, and you'll be able to paint just like him!"

Gene H. Brown · Post by **Gene H. Brown** » 1 Nov 2006 5:19 pm

I think it would depend completely on who's hands they are in!!!
JMHO
Gene

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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!

Don Walworth · Post by **Don Walworth** » 1 Nov 2006 5:28 pm

"I am going to paint my fiddle black.Wonder if it will make me sound like Jascha Heifest?"

Tracy:

Or maybe Jack Benny?

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Don

West Coast Double 8,
Nashville LTD,
Nashville 112

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 1 Nov 2006 5:35 pm

A whine by any other name is still a whine!

I love it!

Terrry

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 1 Nov 2006 8:18 pm

even the p/p tone difference is not so great that it overcomes the mechanical difficulties.

It does for me!

J Hill · Post by **J Hill** » 1 Nov 2006 9:06 pm

An important thing for me is consistent tone all the way up the neck. In other words, the guitar's got to sound like the 'same guitar' all the way up the neck and also up and down the strings at the same fret. What I'm trying to say is hard to put into words, but I've found the Mullen exceptional in this area, a consistently tight 'steel guitar' tone all the way up the neck.

Tracy Sheehan · Post by **Tracy Sheehan** » 1 Nov 2006 9:38 pm

Hey Don.I already sound like Jack Benny when i play violin.
Actually,you probably already know Benny was a good violinist and did that before he got into comedy.He said whay he did woulden'tbe funny if he realy coulden't play violin.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 1 Nov 2006 10:05 pm

This is an interesting subject to me, having come from the six-string world.

There, guitars have VERY distinctive tones...at least certain ones. And those are the tones against which all others are measures. Tlecasters are tyically distictive, as are Strats, Les Pauls, ES-175s' Super 400's. that's why you see the Variax "modeling" guitars, which process the sound to emulate various typical guitar brand/types.

Oddly...to me...in the steel world, while there are certainly inherent differences in tone, they are very, very minor. It's a"one size fits all" industry (the exceptions would be the vintage guitars - Fenders, Bigsbys, and other classics have very distinctive tones.).

It's really odd to me - one sound, no volume or tone controls, and the mythical "the tone is all in the hands" (which is true from the point ot attack and touch, but once the string is vibrating, your hands are out of the equation).

I would seem to me that steel makers...or at least SOME steel maker - would really dive into the tonal world. Experiment with tonewoods, change pickup placement, ADD pickups, add electronics...even active electronics...and create that instrument, that when it's played the listener says "hey, he's playing a (fill in the blank). Right now players may sound different due to their style, licks, etc...especially if they are well-seasoned, stylistic pppros. But most mid-level steelers that I've heard post tunes simply sound the same. They could be playing an Emmons, MSA, Rains, Mullen...flip a coin, there's not much difference in sound, at least that I can detect - and even if I'm not experienced in steels, I AM in sound.

I guess (and I'm new enough to have seen a bit of this) that the "market" - the "players" - don't care. Yes, they swap pickups, but that's as far as it goes. The only ones who seem to tweak steels for tone are former 6-stringers (like my 2-pickup Fender...and my GFI isn't going to be stock for long) or guys who really like to go out in left field. But they are VERY rare..

I think you can go a LONG way with a distinctive sound and decent playing ability...great playing ability and a generic tone puts you in a crowd of players, but doesn't set you apart.

Effects pedals, multi-effect gadgets and such change your "sound" - but not your tone.

Anyway - that's just my take as a relative newbie, long-time guitarist and amp tech. I've had guitarists come to me looking for one little tweak that will give them "their" tone...with stel that seems nonexistent, which I find completely astounding. It's not going to be my approach to the instrument.

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 1 Nov 2006 10:37 pm

All I can say is that the tone is in the hands and the guitar. A good set of hands is going to be able to take the natural tone of the guitar and sculpt it into as good a shape as it can be, but if the clay is no good, the hands can't hide that - it'll sound like a good player on a lousy guitar.

And you're right Jim - all the gadgets in the world can't change what comes out of the output jack on the guitar, just alter it. You can't have your amp and/or other components change your guitar into a guitar it ain't, but you can try... Same with pickups - they'll change what of the sound that pickups will change, but not what they don't, and what they don't change will surprise you when you do it - probably much to your dismay... Unless you had lousy pickups.

I think I've rambled just about enough here.[This message was edited by Duane Reese on 01 November 2006 at 10:40 PM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 2 Nov 2006 2:38 am

Hey Jim - you could try using a funny-looking bar....

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 2 Nov 2006 4:05 am

... but once the string is vibrating, your hands are out of the equation...

So then, you must think that the left-hand vibrato is only used for covering up tuning problems?

(It's actually a very important element in the "sustain equation".)

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 2 Nov 2006 5:59 am

All steels sound the same, but differently...

My 6-string Supro sounds like a steel, but sounds differently than my Emmons SD-10.