Cool Fender 400 Copedent

[b0b]

I still bring out the Fender 400 8 string now and then when a song needs a distorted solo. I have my own copedent I call G15 that is very symmetrical and much more fun to solo on than extended D9 (G-B-D-F#-A-C#-E-G#...aka alternating major and minor 3rds) ...

What a cool tuning!!

[Dennis Montgomery]

I still bring out the Fender 400 8 string now and then when a song needs a distorted solo. I have my own copedent I call G15 that is very symmetrical and much more fun to solo on than extended D9 (G-B-D-F#-A-C#-E-G#...aka alternating major and minor 3rds) ...

What a cool tuning!!

Thanks b0b! I find it very logical to visualize scale shapes for major/minor/pentatonic/etc soloing, but it's also slick in that every 4 adjacent strings alternate major and minor 7th chords

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GMaj7: G-B-D-F#
Bm7:     B-D-F#-A
DMaj7:     D-F#-A-C#
F#m7:        F#-A-C#-E
AMaj7:          A-C#-E-G#

Here's the whole copedent (a couple notes: 1) I added both knee levers with about $30 worth of stuff from the Home Depot hardware aisle. 2) Pedal C doesn't actually make 3 pulls - which is of course not possible on a Fender 400, 2 of the pulls are on pedal C and one on pedal D and I have them connected by an aluminum bar...so in practice I always double pedal C+D)



Here's a chart of the G chord family and how I get them...



My little 400 is lots of fun to play

[b0b]

It's a lot like pedal 7 of the standard C6th, except for the top note:
[tab]string 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2
FMaj7: F-A-C-E
Am7: A-C-E-G
CMaj7: C-E-G-B
Em7: E-G-B-D
G6: G-B-D-E [/tab]

[Dennis Montgomery]

It's a lot like pedal 7 of the standard C6th, except for the top note:
[tab]string 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2
FMaj7: F-A-C-E
Am7: A-C-E-G
CMaj7: C-E-G-B
Em7: E-G-B-D
G6: G-B-D-E [/tab]

That's cool, I've never played C6. This pattern is just so much fun for soloing, so is pedal 7 the best one to hold down to play solos on a C6 neck

[b0b]

That's cool, I've never played C6. This pattern is just so much fun for soloing, so is pedal 7 the best one to hold down to play solos on a C6 neck

For you, I'm sure it is. I'd never thought of it until now. Coincidentally, I play D6th instead of C6th. Your tuning lines up with mine real nice, when I hold that pedal.

[Dennis Montgomery]

Coincidentally, I play D6th instead of C6th. Your tuning lines up with mine real nice, when I hold that pedal.

Cool...I hope you give it a try and it works for you

If I ever find myself behind a D10 I'll make sure to hold pedal 7 and try a solo on the front neck

[Patrick Ickes]

Hey Dennis,
I had a '59 400 and had 3 pulls on my high/3rd string E. It is possible.
The early 400 is my all time favorite guitar.
Patrick

[Thomas Sabatini]

That's cool, I've never played C6. This pattern is just so much fun for soloing, so is pedal 7 the best one to hold down to play solos on a C6 neck

For you, I'm sure it is. I'd never thought of it until now. Coincidentally, I play D6th instead of C6th. Your tuning lines up with mine real nice, when I hold that pedal.

Huh! I just started with a S12U set up with Johnny Cox's D13. I'm still at the early learning stage, learning basic chords and scales while noodling looking for cool pockets.

I love P7+D because it's basically a major pentatonic with a dominant 7. Flattening the Ds with LkR yields a minor pentatonic. It's super intuitive for lead lines.

It's way too early for me to start futzing with things, but as I learn more I'll going to be looking for a good reason not to move P7 to P4 so that it's right there under the LkR.

[Dennis Montgomery]

Hey Dennis,
I had a '59 400 and had 3 pulls on my high/3rd string E. It is possible.
The early 400 is my all time favorite guitar.
Patrick

Hi Patrick, I didn't mean having more than 2 pulls on a single string isn't possible, I meant having a single pedal pull more than 2 strings isn't possible since they balance a 2 finger cable. If you know of a way to have a single pedal pull 3 strings, I'm all ears

[James Taylor]

Thank you both for the very interesting information.

I wish I had known all that when I had my Fender.

BEST WISHES
JAMES TAYLOR

[Patrick Ickes]

Oh got it.
I misunderstood what you meant.
Patrick

[Rich Peterson]

Intriguing concept. I like the 5 note 9th chords. But pedal C seems redundant. I would like the 2nd and 6th string raises to the left of pedal A. Lots of other ideas are swirling around in my brain. Augmented (and demented) chords.

This and Johney Cox' copedent show that the PSG can still evolve.

[K Maul]

A different style, but this made me think of Lew Houston.

[Dennis Montgomery]

For those curious what this tuning sounds like, I used the 400 on every song on the last album of my progressive rock band, Mutiny in Jonestown. The album was released in 2017 and is called, "The Daemons Mock Me While I Sleep". All the songs are based on the stories of early 1900's American horror writer HP Lovecraft. You can check it out on bandcamp at:

https://mutinyinjonestown.bandcamp.com/ ... le-i-sleep

Since many of the songs are quite long and some of you will likely not be into this kind of music but still curious to hear the 400 with this tuning (though of course I'd like people to listen to the whole songs but I know how things work in the real world!) here's a quick guide to where the 400 appears on each song

1) Dagon: The 400 plays the lead (no pedals) at 0:50 and plays an unaccompanied double tracked solo (no pedals) at 7:00.

2) Astrophobos: The 400 plays the guitar backing chords (with pedals) on the first vocal section and then again on the last vocal section at 4:20.

3) The Colour Out of Space: The 400 plays the lead (no pedals) at 10:47.

4) Despair: The 400 plays the main guitar backing parts (with pedals) throughout the song.

5) Polaris: The 400 plays the opening solo (no pedals) and it's longest solo (no pedals) and my favorite one on the album at 2:45.

6) Dagon Coda: The 400 plays the same double tracked piece as on the earlier song Dagon except this time with the full band.

There have been some recent threads about pedal steel outside the world of country music...well, here's a chance to hear it in progressive rock, a style that doesn't usually feature pedal steel (other than Steve Howe who only used it on a couple Yes songs and on his solo albums). I'm also going to post this on the 'Steel on the Web' forum.

Anyway, hope you like it or are at least amused by hearing pedal steel in another setting

[b0b]

Very cool project, Dennis. Thanks for sharing. Track 4, the one with pedals throughout, is especially interesting.

[Dennis Montgomery]

Thank you b0b and thanks for taking the time to listen

The 4th song (Despair) is interesting for a couple reasons. This one (along with song 2 'Astrophobos') are both HP Lovecraft poems I set to music. 'Despair' is especially sad as Lovecraft wrote it the day his mother was committed to a sanitarium/mental asylum after a nervous breakdown...he fell into a deep depression. As it turned out she never returned, dying a few years later in the asylum.

I wrote the chord progressions with a lot of 7th chords, which my 400 tuning is really optimized for. Every time the verse resolves it does so 1/2 step lower than where it started and the next verse starts another 1/2 step down from that - so the verses are constantly dropping and the song spirals down. I thought this was a good musical way to reflect Lovecraft's descent into depression.

[Mark Perrodin]

dennis,
here is how i did it on a fender 800 that i sold recently. it raised
the top two strings and lowered string 6. easy to do and works well.

[Dennis Montgomery]

^ I really like that idea Mark...hadn't thought of that. Very clever

Also, very doable for me as I parted out a 2nd 400, kept all the undercarriage parts, and sold the rest as a console steel. This means I have a couple extra pulley/finger assemblies just laying around

[Mark Perrodin]

dennis,
here are helper springs that i added to a 9 pedal short scale 400. i
felt that the short scale changer has a longer throw on the lowers
and this was my solution. you set it up so there is just a bit of tension
on the changer finger. makes for a pedal movement with almost no
effort. made from left-over parts and a strat vibrato spring. made a
half-stop for that guitar too. it wound up being great. by the way, this guitar
was hammered dog sh*t when i got it so i was ok with experimenting with it.

[Dennis Montgomery]

Hey Mark,

helper springs are a great idea. I did something similar (also using Strat trem springs) to make the pedal tension individually adjustable for each spring. You can see that instead of hooking one end of the spring onto the fixed distance changer plate, I drilled holes in the body, putting a threaded hook through and adjusting the tension with a nut. Works great for me