Pulling the bar back vs. "paintbrush" technique

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 11 Apr 2006 4:39 pm

Hi folks,

In a recent post Ray Minich mentioned the “paintbrush” approach with the bar (covering all the strings all the time) as a bad habit. I have always done this without thinking about it, although I have certainly noticed all video clips I see of pros (I never set eyes on a real live steel player around here) they always pull the nose of the bar back to the highest string they are playing.

I e-mailed Ray about this and he kindly explained some of the issues here (thanks Ray). I’m still interested in hearing from others about the merits of pulling the bar back. When I try doing this I don’t notice an improved tone or accuracy, and what I gain in blocking from the overhanging fingers of my left hand I give up by not having my thumb close to the highest strings I’m picking (I use that thumb for blocking a lot…maybe too much?)

Given how hard it is to break old habits, I’d like to know where this one ranks as a no-no and what I'll gain before I tackle trying to retrain my poor old left hand.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Dan

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Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 11 Apr 2006 5:46 pm

(I use that thumb for blocking a lot…maybe too much?)

Yes, I'd suspect that's the case.

I don't notice much tone difference, and it doesn't bother my accuracy to cover all strings, but it's just a pain! The biggest problems I've found with covering too may strings is increased effort (your hand gets tired faster), and increased noise. The more strings you have under the bar as you slide, the more bar noise you're going to get.

There are some "different techniques" some players employ, and then there are some bad habits. Covering all strings all the time is probably one of the latter.

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 11 Apr 2006 6:36 pm

Dan, LISTEN TO DONNY !!! He knoweth of what he speak. Seriously, it's not a bad habit to break. Just practice, practice practice, and just like blocking, it will come and you won't have to concentrate on it. It will just happen. While I'm on my soapbox... Every steel guitar course I see emphasizes blocking too much. Sure, it's important but it's only 5% of the equation. These courses make some very choppy players. Watch as many videos of the top players and you will hear what I mean. As Herby Wallace says, "let the guitar breathe." Ok, I'm gone now. Hope this helps someone in their quest.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 11 Apr 2006 7:00 pm

Ray, in his initial thread, was talking about playing "Funny How Time Slips Away" in the Jimmy Day arrangement I tabbed out in one of my courses.

In that arrangement, string 5 is fretted by the bar while string 3 is allowed to ring open. Thereby getting the moving sound on the lower string while the higher string remains constant.

Obviously there's no physical way to cover all the strings while playing an open string.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 11 Apr 2006 8:23 pm

I use Frenchy's 'noiseless' reverse-wound strings. I pickblock about 99% of the time (aka Joe Wright taught!)

I do not concern myself with moving my barhand to and fro to correspond with my picking location. Frankly, I can't see how this 'bad habit' disadvantages my playing one bit. I guess it depends on the other bad habits I employ (eg. pick blocking and noiseless strings...)

However, I will admit my playing isn't advanced enough to know any better, and those who play well do employ the to/fro technique.
[This message was edited by Tom Gorr on 11 April 2006 at 09:29 PM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 11 Apr 2006 8:45 pm

I honestly didn' even know you were "supposed" to pull the bar back until I read this - I was wondering what "paintbrush" meant.

Tried it. Feels weird and doesn't seem to make any difference...except I seem to lose some accuracy, and keep going sharp on the bass strings from too much pressure. I fail to see any advantage at all.

I move like that on dobro, but only when playing open strings.

Guess on steel I'll be a bad-habit guy.

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 11 Apr 2006 10:11 pm

Jim Bob Sedgwick said: "While I'm on my soapbox... Every steel guitar course I see emphasizes blocking too much. Sure, it's important but it's only 5% of the equation. These courses make some very choppy players. ... As Herby Wallace says, "let the guitar breathe.""

That's a really good point. Beginners take notice.

Jim Sliff said: "Tried it. Feels weird and doesn't seem to make any difference...except I seem to lose some accuracy, and keep going sharp on the bass strings from too much pressure. I fail to see any advantage at all."

Weird. That's a lot of bad stuff happening from something as simple as not barring all the strings. I might consider giving it another try...

-Travis[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 11 April 2006 at 11:12 PM.]

Larry Strawn · Post by **Larry Strawn** » 12 Apr 2006 12:54 am

I all ways used a long 12 string bar even though I played a single 10, I liked the feel of it. Now that I have a 12 string I went to a shorter bar, way to much bar, and string noise! And yes it does take some getting used to, but it's a much cleaner sound.

Larry

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Fessenden S/D 12, 8/6 Hilton Pedal, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 12 Apr 2006 2:41 am

Only "covering" the strings you are picking is something I learned early on. I don't remember who or where I got that, may have been back in my early lap steel days, but it works for me.

I think the covering only the strings you are picking is also something that Jeff Newman preached.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 12 Apr 2006 3:49 am

There are a lot of different ways to get a noise out of a steel guitar, and it's hard to say that one is definitively more musical than another. Many people pick up the back of the bar and concentrate on using just the nose to pick out single string melodies, to the extreme of Dave Easley who picks it up and holds it like a pencil to play arpeggios way up the neck in C6th tuning. It works so well for him I'm sure not going to call it wrong - if you can play everything you can dream of, perfectly, with the bar held flat against all the strings, by all means do so.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 12 Apr 2006 3:56 am

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. From what I gather so far, the main advantage of pulling the bar back is economy of motion and cutting down on noise. There are also those situations Herb Steiner mentions when one wants an open string against a barred string and must pull the bar back.

As I observed my playing more purposefully last night I noticed that I do actually pull the bar back a little when I'm playing middle strings 7-6-5-4-, but not lower ones. Then I noticed something else that might explain why the paintbrush is more comfortable to me. My back fingers (3,4,5) hang WAY beyond the tip of the bar, a good 3 strings, and I have been unconsciously using these to block as well. In that position, I am not really holding the bar between the thumb and middle finger as much as I am guiding it with my index finger directly lying on top. This probably explains why I have always had a little trouble picking up the bar when that's called for.

I tried pushing the bar up further in my grip (i.e. so my fingertips just barely extend beyond the nose) and this felt okay until I approached the 12th fret or went beyond it. At that point my left wrist was at a very uncomfortable angle that only got worse the higher I went.

So it sounds like I need to either a) scrap my strange bar hand technique and start from scratch or b) say this seems to work okay for me and I should just make the most of it.

Thanks again for the advice so far. Any more is appreciated.

Dan

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Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH

James Sission · Post by **James Sission** » 12 Apr 2006 5:05 am

Dan, I am a new player, but Russ Rickmann took the time to show me some things when I first got my guitar. One of the things he showed me was basically what you’re talking about, but he called it “bar tracking”. Meaning if my right hand is moving away from my body, the left hand should move as well. I watched a lot of video of pro players, and I noticed they do this as well. With that said, I just learned to do it because it seemed like it was pretty widely used. What I have noticed is, I have really gotten comfortable using the left hand middle finger to block which lets me pick my notes a little easier since I do not have to block with right hand. Certainly I would think each person has to decide what is best for him, but I really like keeping the tip of the bar in a direct line with crease in the palm of my right hand and keeping that crease in line with the highest note I am playing. It makes me feel more in control of the guitar........James

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 12 Apr 2006 5:22 am

I used the term "paintbrush technique" from the mental image of the old "Sherwin Williams" paint company logo that had the byline "Cover the Earth". The metaphor is from painting the siding with a 4" wide brush versus detailing with a much narrower "cut-in" brush.
I now have found another habit to break

Herb, thanks a bunch again for the "secrets" revealed.[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 12 April 2006 at 06:24 AM.]

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 12 Apr 2006 6:30 am

The first two people I saw hold a bar (both on video tapes) were Joe Wright and Bruce Bouton. They both said to "track" with the bar, so thats what I am attemptng to do. I dont loose sleep over it or anything but if I am thinking about it i try and track with the bar.

Im just a newb but doesnt the bar itself have kind of a "sweet spot"? It seems that way to me anyway. I Guess thats probably just where my hand pressure is optimal?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 12 Apr 2006 6:42 am

There's a WHOLE lot more to it than just eliminating a bit of bar noise. It is a blocking technique that is an important part of the overall picture. Blocking with the bar hand supplements and complements blocking with the picks or palm with the right hand.

Most beginners try to block TOO OFTEN WITH THE WRONG TECHNIQUE. When learning palm or pick blocking it's natural to try and use that technique for everything. It just doesn't work that way. If you are playing a descending phrase (going down musically, across several strings) you can improve both speed and smoothness of playing by blocking with the tip of the middle finger extending beyond the end of the bar JUST SLIGHTLY and pulling the bar back once the last note on a given string has been played. For example:
<pre>
4--3----------------------
5----3A~~3----------------
6-----------3B~~3---------
7------------------3------
8---------------------3---
</pre>
This phrase can (and should) be played very cleanly and smoothly WITHOUT RIGHT HAND BLOCKING
As soon as you are done with a string, MOVE THE NOSE OF THE BAR BACK TOWARD YOU ONE STRING and mute the previous string with the tip of the middle finger of the left hand (extending just past the end of the bar)

'Tracking' the left hand with the right will come with practice and will become second nature. 99% of the best players use both hands in this way for blocking.

Another technique in this vein is lifting the back edge of the bar for single note passages. Some people have mentioned a 'penciling' technique used by Dave Easley. He's not the only one -- most good single string players lift the back end of the bar to help play rapid single string passages more cleanly.

Using a coordinated left/right hand approach to blocking is a great skill/technique to develop.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 12 Apr 2006 6:57 am

Tipping the bar when playing an ascending single string run is a technique shown to me decades ago by Red Rhodes, who said it was commonly used by Jerry Byrd and other Hawaiian players. When fretting the strings being played with the tip of the bar, the strings just previously picked will be blocked by the ring and pinkie fingers of the left hand. No right hand blocking is necessary when utilizing this technique.

As far as "bar tracking" goes, I learned my left hand stuff from watching the excellent closeups of Buddy Charleton on the Ernest Tubb TV show back in the mid-60's. I figured that if it was good enough for Charleton, it's good enough for me.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Adrienne Clasky · Post by **Adrienne Clasky** » 12 Apr 2006 8:24 am

Wow. What great answers! I've learned so much from this thread.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 12 Apr 2006 8:32 am

Hmmm - I don't see "economy of motion" - it's EXTRA motion. I do see where it's necessary where open strings are played, but all the blocking stuff seems over-emphasised to me. But then, I don't play a "normal" guitar or "normal" style...

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 12 Apr 2006 10:13 am

By pulling the bar back, it tends to help me with positioning my right hand for picking the correct string groups. If I have both hands moving back and forth together, it helps me by not having to think so much about where my right hand is located.

I just tried both ways, and I definatly (no matter how I spell that word, it looks wrong) can tell a difference in tone. But, that may be my inexperience with leaving the bar covering all strings

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Apr 2006 12:33 pm

I'm just going to add that I don't know of a single "pro-level" player, not one, out of all the hundreds I've seen in the last 50 years that covers all the strings all the time, it's just not done. As you progress up the ladder, it will, in all liklihood, slow down your progress or cause other problems. There's many ways to do something, but when all the "big dogs" are doing something the same way, there's probably a pretty good reason.

However..."whatever floats your boat", as they say. It's your music.

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 12 Apr 2006 12:48 pm

RE "economy of motion" I think the idea is that it's economical for the right hand, which has less blocking work to do because the left hand is helping out. It's a gain overall because the left hand can move with no penalty in terms of efficiency (it's an extra movement, but you're not sacrificing anything to make it since the hand would just be sitting there doing nothing anyways) and it helps the right hand.

Seriously, Jim, I'd say give it another shot. There's no reason to give up on a useful technique just to maintain some kind of imaginary "outsider" status.

-Travis

Robert Porri · Post by **Robert Porri** » 12 Apr 2006 2:24 pm

What a great topic. I asked a question about this at a Chuck Lettes seminar at the PSGA show a few years ago. As Ben mentioned, Chuck also used the words "sweet spot" and it made perfect sense to me. The way I understand it, there is a spot on the bar where you simply get the cleanest, best sound/tone with the least amount of pressure and extraneous noise. I think this is a subtle thing to an extent, but a fact. I greatly appreciated Larry Bell's post regarding the use of the left hand in blocking as you pull the bar back. As a long time guitar player, I know that there are numerous things I do that I don't even think about except when I have to try to analyze and explain it to a student. What Larry wrote reminded me of those types of things. To some extent, I have to "take in on faith" because my PSG playing is not advanced at all. But, in watching every pro doing this, I just try to work at it whenever I can be aware of it. In some ways though, I think this is something that will probably happen naturally after playing a long time and you make unconscious adjustments to get the best sound.

Bob P.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 12 Apr 2006 3:01 pm

The tip of the bar is where you have the most control over downward pressure, lateral movement, and vibrato. Therein lies the "sweet spot."

You can accomplish more with the tip of your finger than you can with area around your knuckles. Same thing with the bar.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 12 Apr 2006 3:19 pm

If the subject of moving the bar away from unplayed strings is a neccessary topic for debate, it's no wonder some players here have to concentrate so much on blocking.

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Steel players do it without fretting

[This message was edited by basilh on 13 April 2006 at 02:29 AM.]

David Wren · Post by **David Wren** » 17 Apr 2006 3:15 pm

Interesting, I've been playing this way for so long, I forgot I was even doing it. Being able to quickly use the nose of the bar for single string passages (things like substituting pedal and KL pulls with simply moving the bar up or down a fret or 2) is one really good reason to do this.

Letting the left hand "track" the right" is a good way of putting it also. Larry's post, as usual is right on, and I'm probably doing the left index finger blocking as well (without realizing it as well, hmmmmm maybe I should start bringing my steel to work so I can check these things out

I would add that for myself, I'm frequently looking for open string unisons to the barred notes I am playing, and am also a big fan of hammering on and pulling off 2 note harmonies.

All these things would be very hard to do, and cover all the strings at the same time..... especially since I still use my Emmons 10 string bar, on my 12 string steel

Nice topic.

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Dave Wren
'96 Carter S12-E9/B6,7X7; Twin Session 500s; Hilton Pedal; Black Box
www.ameechapman.com