Routing advice needed

Jonathan Shacklock · Post by **Jonathan Shacklock** » 14 Mar 2006 3:18 pm

I've ordered a new end-mount Truetone from Jerry Wallace for my '74 MSA Classic S-10 and I'm starting to think about the task of routing out the pickup cavity to get the larger pickup to fit. I have zero experience with a router so obviously I could use some advice.

Rest assured I will be thoroughly researching this before I go near my guitar with anything sharper than a set of fingerpicks. I think my biggest fear-born-of-ignorance is splitting or chipping the mica surface and ruining my guitar's looks. I don't really know what to expect with this material. I think I will practise my cutting on an old piece of formica kitchen worktop or similar first.

My tools of choice are a Dremel with plunge routing attachment (possibly a bit underpowered[?] but I'm thinking precision over speed), a small adjustable workbench, some clamps and wood blocks (to clear the changer's height) and a piece of plywood cut for a template. Sound OK? Any help and advice from woodshop gurus would be much appreciated.

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 14 Mar 2006 3:37 pm

I am far more concerned about your health and safety than I am about your guitar. A router is a scary piece of machinery. I consider it more dangerous than a circular saw. I cannot tell you what you need to know--you need to know A LOT. A router is not to be taken lightly and a fair amount of experience with one is recommended before taking it to a valuable piece of stock.
Sorry I can't be helpful in providing answers to your questions--I'm just not qualified to instruct someone. However I can tell you that a Dremel is definitely not adequate for this task.

Bill Ford · Post by **Bill Ford** » 14 Mar 2006 3:38 pm

Jonathan,
Unless you have some experience in woodworking, I would talk to a couple of cabnet shops and get an idea how much it would cost to have done. The practice on a piece of scrap and clamp it in place template idea sounds like a good idea if you decide to do it yourself.

Good luck Bill

Chris Grotewohl · Post by **Chris Grotewohl** » 14 Mar 2006 4:14 pm

I would wait till ya get the pickup. Fit great on my 80 XL. Velcroed it on. CG

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 14 Mar 2006 5:55 pm

Yes, get a pro to do it, and remember to put masking tape or contact paper over the surface, or the will be some scratching. As far as chipping, don't worry about that, routers turn far to fast to cause chipping or rough edges. I'd suggest you record your guitar before you change the pickup, and then record it again exactly the same way after the new one is installed. That will give you a true comparison of the actual sound change (if any).

Gary Spaeth · Post by **Gary Spaeth** » 14 Mar 2006 7:57 pm

i used a drehmel with a drum sander to widen out a pickup hole once. it worked great and was very safe. it removes the wood slowly enough so you can control the size easily.

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 14 Mar 2006 9:57 pm

Measure twice, cut once!

You can always remove more wood but it's hard to put it back on. Stay INSIDE the lines.

Practice on some scap wood until you know you can get it right.

As for the template, I think I'd make it from plexiglass rather than plywood if given the choice.

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Gary Shepherd

Carter D-10

www.16tracks.com

Jonathan Shacklock · Post by **Jonathan Shacklock** » 15 Mar 2006 12:35 am

Thanks everyone, this is very useful, please keep that advice rolling in. I will certainly wait for the pickup to arrive before I do anything! I'll record a before and after and post a link here for comparison.

Mark Vinbury · Post by **Mark Vinbury** » 15 Mar 2006 5:57 am

You could trim the plastic base of the pickup instead of opening up the cavity.
I use TrueTones in my lap steel kits and there is a some excess that can be trimmed with a small grinder or filing (careful not to nick the windings).All depends on how much and where you need to do the modifying.[This message was edited by Mark Vinbury on 15 March 2006 at 05:59 AM.]

Matt Martin · Post by **Matt Martin** » 15 Mar 2006 6:26 am

Hey Jon.....go ahead and DIY. Like you said, pratice on something first. ANY pro does that!! And keep one thing in mind...
move VERY slowly. Even a small twitch will wander...depending on the sharpness of the bit. If you use a small (1/4" Dia.) mortise bit, you'll do fine. It's no big deal! You can do it if you have a good eye and a steady hand. BTW, wear eye protection...always!!!!

David Cobb · Post by **David Cobb** » 15 Mar 2006 7:04 am

I know a guy who was once a 10 fingered man, but no more thanks to a router.
It happened very quickly too.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 15 Mar 2006 12:25 pm

A router can really rip you up. If the router and the workpiece aren't very securely fastened, held, controlled, and moved, bad things can happen. I like the Dremel tool alternative that's been mentioned.
I hate Norm, he has everything in that shop...Delta this, Porter Cable that...

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 15 Mar 2006 12:42 pm

i'm with the other fellas on this one;
a router is a very very dangerous tool and its also hard to use with any degree of accurcy untill you have a lot of experance
let a pro do it for you

calvin

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 15 Mar 2006 1:57 pm

If you never used a router before I would think twice about using that on a steelguitar.I messed up my first cabinet when I tried to rout out some material.Use a good template and make sure you have a good sturdy workbench.
And like people on here said before....practise.....A lot.

Ron

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John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 15 Mar 2006 3:04 pm

I've been a carpenter for 35 yrs. and am very well versed in using all types of woodworking tools. I, personally, know the dangers, power tools have. I would suggest, especially with something such as a precious steel, that, you take it to a cabinet maker for the inletting. Show him what you want to do and let a professional do the work. I'm not insinuating that you're not handy, but, not being familiar with a dangerous tool can lead to disaster, physically and product wise. It may cost a few bucks, but, I think it's worth it in the end. There are a few of us woodworkers, here on the forum, and any one of us could write a couple of paragraghs and send pictures on how to do the installation. But, I would not want to be partially responsable for you losing a finger (fingers) or messing up your steel.
Sincerely,
John

Jonathan Shacklock · Post by **Jonathan Shacklock** » 16 Mar 2006 2:16 am

Thank you again for all your responses. I truly appreciate the saftey issues you have expressed with genuine concern.

I completely agree that ignorance is the enemy of safety and with that in mind I'm not sure I understand the reason for witholding information that would clearly make the whole process safer.

If we all took the position that sharing information made you responsible for how that information was misused...

Well, the consequences for mankind would be unthinkable, but more to the point how do you think Norm sleeps at night with all those ghostly digits looming up at him?

Getting back to the subject of enlarging a pickup hole by a few millimetres: I would very much like to experience the satisfaction of learning how to do that for myself. Or put another way: Why Should You Have All The Fun?

So John, if you would like to write a couple of paragraphs (with pictures!) I can't think of a more enlightened and receptive forum with which to share. (I really do appreciate the dangers involved and the spirit intended in your post). Thanks everyone.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 16 Mar 2006 7:27 am

Many millions of American dollars have changed ownership over the past 25 years all due to a legal issue called "Failure to Warn".
One stands the risk, by giving advice & recommendations, of leading the recipient on to think that a task may be of lower hazard risk than it really is. Tort law in the US is a real mess. If I teach you to change string 3, then one breaks and rips out an eye, I'm at fault 'cause I didn't sufficiently warn you of the hazard. Tort law in the US can be summed up in "somebody got hurt, somebody's got to pay...". It's that simple.

Might I recommend that you wander on down to the local hardware store and peruse the books on "how to use a router", and or "router safety" so that you can familiarize yourself with the environment.

A more accurate and safe method would be to find someone with a Bridgeport milling machine and use that with a sharp milling cutter at a reasonable high speed in the spindle. Accuracy is easier to achieve and the likely hood of parts flying is diminished.[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 16 March 2006 at 07:46 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 16 Mar 2006 9:07 am

(wow . . . what a legal goat rodeo)

Looking at this from a different perspective, would it not have been possible to send Jerry Wallace the dimensions of the cavity and locations of the mounting screws and had him make the pickup so it would fit? Seems it would be easier to bring Mohammad to the mountain rather than vice versa.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jonathan Shacklock · Post by **Jonathan Shacklock** » 16 Mar 2006 12:46 pm

I like your thinking Larry but I wanted to rout out the old holes anyway. A previous owner had mounted a replacement pickup through new screw holes on the surface of the neck, not a very pretty job.

Ray, I'm not convinced that it's a fear of litigation issue. I do believe folks are genuinely concerned here, just as they would be if I said I was a newbie about to poke around in the back of a vintage amp with a screwdriver. Once again I appreciate that.

I'm still going to give it a go however. Not the amp thing, I'm not stupid.

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 16 Mar 2006 1:08 pm

As to the question of providing advice or instruction---I am semi-capable and semi-experienced with power tools. There is absolutely no way that I would put on an instructor's hat and give pointers or tips. I had a router run away and destroy a small part I was fabricating recently. It was a good reminder of the hazards. It happened in a split second and it could have been nasty but I was lucky. There is nothing selfish in my 'withholding' information. I am wholey unqualified to dispense advice on this subject other than the caveats.

Roger Crawford · Post by **Roger Crawford** » 16 Mar 2006 1:42 pm

By all means, use a template!

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 16 Mar 2006 9:46 pm

Jonathan,
Since you seem to be determined to do it yourself, (accolades,accolades) I'd like to give you some tips.
1. A minimum 1 h.p. plunge router is a must
for a safe job.
2. A 2 flute "CARBIDE" cutting bit, with a
top rubbing collar / or a "CARBIDE"
mortise bit. I prefer the cutting bit
because the rub collar will follow your
template without ruining it.
3. A plywood or masonite template, (jig)
so the router follows your layout, clamped
securely to the neck. The template should
be just a little larger that the actual
pickup, to allow for any adjustment,
latterally, or vertically.
4. Make multiple passes, ploughing out only
1/4" to 3/8" at a time. Trying to plough
the whole depth will labor the router,
shear the bit off, or tear the wood.
5. Move the router in the direction, that,
the bit is turning. If you don't, the
spinning bit can kick the router away
from the stock and ruin the cut.
6. Take your time and clean out the cavity
after each pass. You'll see your progress
better and there's no chance of a chip
coming back at you.

Most of this type job is in the layout. After you have your template made and fastened to the neck, it's really just a matter of patiently cutting out the unwanted stock. But, I would certainly recommed practising on a sacrificial blank, until your confident with your setup.
Also, about routers- any decent 1-2 H.P. plunge router will do.
Also- bits come in 2 shank sizes 1/4" and 1/2". If you should get a 1/2" shank, make sure you have the correct "collet" to fit. A 1/4" shank is sufficient and most routers come with a 1/4" "collet" as standard. "1/2" shank bits are much more expensive and really used for a lot of heavy duty work or used in a shaper.

I hope these tips help you. I know later on, I'll remember more things to say about this ,so, if you can't understand my logic, e-mail me, and I'll try to guide you more.
Sincerely,
John

Jonathan Shacklock · Post by **Jonathan Shacklock** » 17 Mar 2006 2:02 am

Thanks John, I appreciate you taking the time (and I'm sorry if I goaded you into it somewhat). This is very detailed and helpful - little things like tip 6 make all the difference if you don't have years of experience behind you.

It will be a few weeks before I get the job started and I'll let you know how it all goes. Time to get practising.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 17 Mar 2006 6:38 am

Try to "conventional mill" instead of "climb mill", else the router grabs the stock and everything can go flying.

Mark Vinbury · Post by **Mark Vinbury** » 17 Mar 2006 7:40 am

Sounds, in your original post, like you were going to try to bridge the changer with some blocking under the template.In other words the template would not be directly on the top of the guitar.That would be asking for trouble in my opinion.
Best to clear the deck of hardware and use a thick template, firmly clamped, with your pattern hole cut in it.
You need a thick template if your using a "bearing over" router bit so the bearing can ride on it without the bit projecting too far below.I'd only take 1/8" -3/16" deep cut on my first pass.
Having the template firmly clamped to the mica surface will also help prevent chipping the laminate.
If your using a "bearing over" router bit it will have a 1/4" shaft.
A 1/2 " shaft with a bearing is huge and would leave a large radius in the corners of the cavity.
I use a bearing over bit that has a cutter only 1/4" high and 1/2" dia. for almost all my pickup cavity pattern routing.
It allows use of a !/2" thick pattern and is very controlable.
Wax the base of the router for a nice smooth ride.
[This message was edited by Mark Vinbury on 17 March 2006 at 09:13 AM.]