Hmm...interesting experiment

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 9 Mar 2006 8:48 am

Try this once.

With your steel unplugged, just hold the bar at the 21st fret, and strum the strings a few times.

Now, place your bar at the 6th fret, and strum the strings a few times behind the bar.

Notice anything?

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 9 Mar 2006 9:09 am

good one Donny.Now put your bar on the twelfth fret and strum them behind the bar.I like that sound.Maybe a little old but always nice for the newbies.

Ron

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Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 9 Mar 2006 9:20 am

Sure -- but I believe it's the 22nd not the 21st fret

the strings are the same length from nut to 6 as from 22 to the bridge. It's a DMajor position with no pedals

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
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Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 9 Mar 2006 1:14 pm

Nope! Sorry Larry, playing the strings behind the bar on the 6th fret of my steels yeilds a Db, the same chord as played in front of the bar at the 21st fret. Anyhow, it's not the chord in this experiment that's significant, and I want to see if anyone else notices what I do.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 9 Mar 2006 1:34 pm

Donny, you know how much I HATE being at work right now where I can't try this?

AAAARRRGGGHHH!!!!

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 9 Mar 2006 2:01 pm

This has been known over the years as "overtone" harmonics great effect.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 9 Mar 2006 2:52 pm

And I thought I'd discovered it.

Earl Foote · Post by **Earl Foote** » 9 Mar 2006 5:09 pm

It's a lot louder strumming behind the 6th fret on my guitar(S-10PP).

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 9 Mar 2006 5:29 pm

Bingo Earl! When I discovered this (just horsing around), I was amazed how much louder and cleaner the sound was! At first I thought that the pickup might have a deadening effect (due to the magnets), but when I removed the pickup, the result was the same...it just sounds twice as loud (and cleaner) at the nut end than it does at the bridge end! Maybe it's the mass of the changer, or maybe it's the smaller diameter of the rollers. Maybe it's other factors, such as the distance from the end of the guitar cabinet. Whatever it is is very profound, and frankly, it's really intriguing me.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 9 Mar 2006 5:35 pm

Maybe we all have left-handed steels with the pickup at the wrong end.

Gordy Hall · Post by **Gordy Hall** » 9 Mar 2006 6:09 pm

Has there ever been a steel made with a pickup by the nut?

That is a sure-fire solution to pick noise, eh?

Just wonderin'.

Steven Black · Post by **Steven Black** » 9 Mar 2006 6:55 pm

Jeff Newman played a few tunes with picking behind the bar, one was called City of New Orleans, and the other was Tie a yellow ribbon round the old oak tree, great tunes to use this playing on.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 9 Mar 2006 8:48 pm

Perhaps it's because there is all that extra string that extends over the roller and out to the tuner.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 10 Mar 2006 3:49 am

Thought of that one too, Lee, so I put a rag over the strings in the keyhead to dampen them. The big difference in volume is still there!

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 10 Mar 2006 4:02 am

Donny, is there more material under the strings at the changer end? On most steel guitars the neck is wider on the pickup end. This makes for greater mass (more wood and/or aluminum) which could have a deadening effect.

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Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 10 Mar 2006 7:01 am

That may be it, John. If so, someone could make a super-light changer so we could take advantage of the improved sound and tone.

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 10 Mar 2006 7:22 am

Donny, maybe that's why Buck liked the sound of Mooneys 4x4 homemade steel.
When Les Paul designed the guitar that Gibson built, he started with a 4x4 solid wood neck which ran all the way from the keyhead to the bridge. That was the concept that allowed Gibson to build guitars which all had the same tone.

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Tony Orth · Post by **Tony Orth** » 10 Mar 2006 8:06 am

I'm not at my guitar to try this out but someone who is, might.

Theory: If you are playing at the 6th fret and strumming the strings behind the bar to get the sound, isn't the remainder of the string (long part to the right of the bar) helping to carry the sound to the pickup?

Try dampening the string to the right of the bar with a rag or some other material that will keep the strings to the right of the bar from oscillating. Let me know what the result is.

Thanks
Tony[This message was edited by Tony Orth on 10 March 2006 at 08:07 AM.][This message was edited by Tony Orth on 10 March 2006 at 08:08 AM.][This message was edited by Tony Orth on 10 March 2006 at 08:08 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 10 Mar 2006 8:11 am

Possible reasons:

1. It is known (meaning I have read it here on the Forum) that a smaller radius of a nut or changer gives better tone and sustain. The radius of changers is a compromise between tone and string breakage.

2. A changer is not a solid connection to the body. Changers have joints and moving parts that absorb vibrational energy (less true for push-pulls and other “body contact” technologies).

3. The cutouts in the body for the pickup and changer weaken the rigidity and lower the mass of the body at that end.

4. When a string vibrates in one direction at the nut, the extra length on the other side of the nut can vibrate slightly in the other direction, thus requiring less flex in the string and providing a freer vibration. The strings would have to be clamped very tightly somehow immediately behind the nut to prevent that. Most pedal steels have the strings fixed behind the changer. I believe Excel is an exception, or is it Anapeg? Some tests for this effect would be a keyless pedal steel that has the strings fixed behind the nut. Also, many lap steels have nuts and bridges of similar radius, and have some string length behind the bridge.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 10 Mar 2006 8:40 am

Good points, David. I've deadened the strings on the other side of the bar, and that has little or no effect. I'm sure the changer mass comes into the equation somewhat, but when you take the nut, the keyhead, and the keys into consideration, there's a lot of mass on that side of the guitar, too! I guess it wouldn't bug me so much if the difference wasn't so profound.

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 10 Mar 2006 9:09 am

I have 6 inches more wood on the left hand side of the guitar in comparison to the right hand side.
When I listen to it without amp, I can hear the sound coming from underneath the keyhead.
<pre>
end nut 6th 21st brdg end
|________|----o---------------o----|___|
< 8" >< 7" > < 7" ><2">
</pre>
(side view)

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Peter den Hartogh
1978 Emmons S10 P/P; 1977 Sho-Bud D10 ProIII Custom;
1975 Fender Artist S10; Remington U12; 1947 Gibson BR4;
[This message was edited by Peter on 10 March 2006 at 09:13 AM.]

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 10 Mar 2006 9:35 am

Just to add to the confusion:

The instrument under test here is the BEAST. It has a the changer/tuner at the players left. It has no neck block. The strings are 1 & 5/8" above the body. The strings are 11/32" apart at both ends. The changer radius is 7/8", the material is 6061 Aluminum. The bridge radius is 3/16", it is a hard brass rod. The angle that the strings cross the bridge and changer is about 10 degrees = very shallow. It is a keyless, and the string distance beyond the nut (players left) is less than 3/4"; beyond the bridge it is 1".

The bar used is Zirc, 1" dia.

The bar is placed at 6 & 21...strings are strummed with a thumb pick at the halfway point between the fret and nut (6), and the between the fret and bridge (21). The strings are not damped with the hand/fingers.

Can a difference between the two vibrations be heard with my ear alone = Yes...more lower tones from the fret 6 end. This may sound to some like the sound is louder at the fret 6 end. Recall that the ear does not hear the highs as well as it does the mids.

The question becomes, is this a difference in string vibration, or just an acoustic event because of the various reflective differences? The answer may be seen using Frequency Spectrum Analysis techniques (FSA).

A movable pickup is placed at the halfway point of the fret 6/nut, the strings are excited, and the peaks of the vibrations are recorded.

The pickup is moved to halfway between fret 21 and the bridge, the strings are excited, and the peaks of these vibrations are recorded.

The results of the two are compared. The results show that between 500 Hz and 1 KHz there is less than 1 db (very little), but between 1 KHz and 2 KHz (next octave) the differences may be as much as 6 db greater for the fret 6 end than the fret 21 end. Between @ KHz and 4 KHz (still another octave) the fret 6 end may be as much as 10 db greater. It gets even greater in the next octave 4 KHz to 8 KHz.

The pickup is a low impedance, flat (compared to standard pickups) so it sees, collects, and passes vibrations to and beyond 10 KHz.

Flageolets on the fret 7, and fret 19 sound the same, and measure very close to the same.

If I get ambitious enough, I might dig out the SB pro and repeat the tests.

[This message was edited by ed packard on 10 March 2006 at 09:43 AM.]

Tony Orth · Post by **Tony Orth** » 10 Mar 2006 10:12 am

This dispels my theory that "unused" string length on the pickup side is amplifying the sound. The movable pickup eliminates that as a possibility.

I'm not sure, yet, how we'll use this information but the discussion in very interesting. Keep going Ed, I'm curious to know why this phenomenon exists and whether it will vary greatly on different guitars.

Tony

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 10 Mar 2006 10:20 am

Ed, that's nothing short of fascinating! You've taken the changer pretty much out of the equation (since your changer's on the left), the keyhead/open-string factor (keyless guitars have almost no keyhead or open strings), and it seems you've also nixed the differences between the radii of the changer and the nut.

You're right, all that just adds to the mystery of what's happening, and I sure appreciate your scientific methodology and insights.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 10 Mar 2006 10:37 am

I might add that this was NOT one of the measurements done to the 32 PSGs tested at Jim Palenscar's shop. Jim made about all the physical measurements that can be made on the instruments. I photographed, the Bridge, nut, and underneaths at both ends (scaled), and did the FSA for open string strum at 0, 2,4,& 8 seconds...to compare the "sustain". The same hearing spectrum problem (mids over highs and lows) showed up therein also = Mids maintained while highs dropped out with time.

We may get around to publishing the results one of these days, and to pursue further tests on representative units.