Using Polytonal Chords

Brandon Housewright · Post by **Brandon Housewright** » 23 Feb 2006 7:34 am

I thought this might be useful to some folks so I decided to post this. I use Bobbe's 2 knee lever setup and just love it. Big chords, less tuning. I also wanted to come up with easy ways to get more interesting chords without more mechanical junk on my guitar. So I found some EASY substitutions that anyone can do with even the most simple copedants. The examples are shown in C in this order:

Chord
Substitute chord
Notes in the chord
Intervals represented

C7#9
Cm
C D# G
1 #9 5

C7b9#5
C#m
Db E G#
b9 3 #5

C6/9+11
D
D F# A
9 +11 6

C13+11
D
D F# A
9 +11 13

C11/13
Dm
D F A
9 11 13

C7#9
Eb
D# G Bb
#9 5 7

C7#9b5
Ebm
D# Gb Bb
#9 b5 7

CMaj7#5
E
E G# B
3 #5 M7

CMaj7
Em
E G B
3 5 M7

C7b9+11
F#
F# Bb Db
#11 7 b9

CMaj9
G
G B D
5 M7 9

C9
Gm
G Bb D
5 7 9

C7#5#9
Ab
G# C D#
#5 1 #9

C13b9
A
A Db E
13 b9 3

C6
Am
A C E
6 1 3

C11
Bb
Bb D F
7 9 11

C11b9
Bbm
Bb Db F
7 b9 11

CMaj7#9+11
B
B D# F#
M7 #9 +11

CmMaj7/9
G
G B D
5 M7 9

Cm9
Gm
G Bb D
5 7 9

Cm11
Bb
Bb D F
7 9 11

Hope this jazzs up things for a few of you. It's not as easy to view I like, but you can print it out and rewrite them if it's easier for you. That's how I wanted it, but this thing wouldn't post it the way I originaly wrote it. On some chords you'll notice I used enharmonic notes to show relevance on some chords. Try 'em...you'll like 'em. Have fun![This message was edited by Brandon Housewright on 23 February 2006 at 07:47 AM.][This message was edited by Brandon Housewright on 23 February 2006 at 07:49 AM.]

Adrienne Clasky · Post by **Adrienne Clasky** » 23 Feb 2006 10:23 am

Thank you! This is a keeper. One dumb question, though: do you play these on the E9?

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 23 Feb 2006 11:48 am

Some good substitutions there.

My jury is out on the Cmi sub. for a C7#9 chord. Anyway you play it, it sound minor to me without the E in there.

Try finding a Gb76 chord E Bb Eb and think C in the bass.

Brandon Housewright · Post by **Brandon Housewright** » 23 Feb 2006 11:55 am

Adrienne...I sure do...lots of folks I believe think you need a C6 neck for jazzier stuff but it's not true. You can play all sorts of stuff on E9 if you know what to look for and what to do. I looked for months to find a book that showed these kinds of substitutions because I knew that good sounding jazz chords could be done suitably on E9. I just wanted a source to draw from. What I think is that people believe they need ALL the notes of a chord voicing to make the sound they want. But it's just not true. Listen to a lot of jazz pianists for example and you'll hear that they use a lot of partials and clusters of notes to imply chords even though they can make full voicings. If you experiment some, you'll see what I mean. Also, invest in Don E. Curtis' book C6 on E9, Herb Steiner's two Swingin'On E9 books, and Bobbe Seymour's Z lever videos. They are definitely helpful and are keepers for me...I use them all the time! (And I've owned and sold LOTS of the more popular steel instruction over the past 3 years!)[This message was edited by Brandon Housewright on 23 February 2006 at 11:57 AM.]

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 23 Feb 2006 12:09 pm

Some good ideas there,but I wouldn't call them "substitutions"... for many, you need something in the lower octave to make the sound you want complete- basically, you can superimpose Cm over C7 to get the #9 sound, but if there is nothing but C Eb G it sounds like Cm...so it needs the lower basic chord (or the 3 and b7) to be in context.

But if your keyboardist/guitarist was playing C7, then playing the Cm on top would sure give you that #9 sound.

C7 13 b9- yes, thinking of the A triad on top will do that- but you do need the "basic chord sound" (usually the 3 and b7) below or it'll sound like a vanilla A triad.

At Berklee they call this way of thinking "upper structure triads". Excellent stuff and good information for playing melodically on the "higher partials" of the chords.[This message was edited by John McGann on 23 February 2006 at 12:14 PM.]

Brandon Housewright · Post by **Brandon Housewright** » 23 Feb 2006 1:32 pm

Just for the record, these only work for their purpose when the root is being played by someone else (assuming your bassist/guitarist/pianist are doing their jobs correctly). [This message was edited by Brandon Housewright on 23 February 2006 at 01:32 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 23 Feb 2006 1:37 pm

Using the concept of polychords is an accepted way to extend/alter 7th chords, so that is good information you provided. On the other hand, I agree with John M. Extending 7th chords is not substitution, IMO. Substitution is taking a charted chord/progression, and replacing it with different root motion and/or chord quality.

------------------
Jeff's Jazz

Brandon Housewright · Post by **Brandon Housewright** » 23 Feb 2006 1:57 pm

I guess I used the wrong word Jeff...your definition is right for substitution. Polychord is more proper. I just used it loosely to fit my meaning (stacking triads over triads to make richer overall voicings). Thought it would simplify understanding. The word "polytonal" is enough to scare some people. Keep in mind too that jazz theory is fairly new to me (vs. the classical theory I had in college) and I use this stuff sparingly in my playing. Most bar patron's ears can't handle some of the things I would like to play. Let's just say I like a little spice now and then

.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 23 Feb 2006 3:10 pm

Most bar patron's ears can't handle some of the things I would like to play.

Including some bar-bands. I've actually had some supposed musicians yell chords at me when I played a major 7th or 9th... boy is that disheartening!

Some good info, thanks.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 25 Feb 2006 6:45 am

Jim P...I had one chap (bandleader?) tell me "we're not playing a symphony here" when I informed him of the m7's in On The Road Again...all that counted for him was loud and fast.

Re the thread subject..Some one in the band should be covering the Roots, Fifths, Thirds, and Sevenths, and in the correct octaves when partials of two octave structures are used.