Why lower 9 to C#. 10 already raises to C#

Allan Haley · Post by **Allan Haley** » 16 Sep 2018 12:02 pm

Hi steelers. I'm a semi-beginner (5 years in). Don't the 9 lower and 10 raise do the same thing? Why have both?
Thanks
Al

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 16 Sep 2018 12:42 pm

Often times you want to have the C# on the bottom and a B note on the fifth string. You can't do that unless you lower the 9th to C#.

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 16 Sep 2018 3:28 pm

And if the D is the 7 in an E7 (strings 6.8.9) then it can resolve nicely to A with that lower and the B pedal.

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 16 Sep 2018 4:15 pm

Many reasons, one is to get a minor 7th chord. For example on strings 4,5,6 and 9 at fret 3 there is an Em7th chord. If you tried to play this using the 10th string with the A pedal active, you would would also be raising the 5th string and that would interfere with the m7th chord formation.

Many other examples here along with a chart showing the above minor 7th chord:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/C6th%20On%20 ... 0E9th.html

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 19 Sep 2018 11:13 am

I've said this before but, like Allan, I wondered the same thing. That was many years ago, though, and in the late-'80s I was fortunate enough to work with the late great Jimmie Crawford.

One day I was listening to him getting these beautifully rich inversions - major 9ths, major 7ths, add 9ths, etc - and I asked him how he got them. He said 'Lower your 9th string and....'

Me: 'Jimmie - I can't lower my 9th.'

He just said - 'You HAVE to lower the 9th!!!'

He was right. It opens so many doors on E9. Along with lowering the 5th it's my most important knee lever.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 19 Sep 2018 11:43 am

how about a much simpler answer

because there is a ton of music coming off the 9th string ! It's not a bxxstard child living in it's own world !

comparing 9 and 10, 9 drops a half tone down

10 raises a FULL tone UP

Two worlds collide ! As they should !

In simplicity, resolving to the root with the 9 lower then bringing in the 10 raise to the two unison notes is insane. It's just one more reason why we play these crazy instruments !

Allan Haley · Post by **Allan Haley** » 19 Sep 2018 5:48 pm

Thanks for all those ideas. I'm going to spend some time figuring all this out.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 19 Sep 2018 6:48 pm

With the F lever it gives you a 7th chord (strings 9, 8, 6, 5).

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 20 Sep 2018 12:14 am

Another answer to the OP is "because you could" in the old pull-release days when you couldn't raise and lower the same string. 9 didn't raise, so it could be lowered. 6 had the B-pedal raise so couldn't be lowered to F#, but 7 could be raised to G# to give the same change with forethought.

Jack Stanton · Post by **Jack Stanton** » 20 Sep 2018 6:12 am

In addition to all of the above answers it also serves to help the 2nd string lower half stop.

Dale Rottacker · Post by **Dale Rottacker** » 20 Sep 2018 7:15 am

For me I like the ergonomics of lowering the 9th to C#, as well as raising 7 to G# at the same time... I think the “Feel” of it is better than when raising 10 to C# and allows the strumming of 9876 with AB pedals down or 9865... I think it’s a more natural grip/strum for me anyhow... Plus going from that lever to the F lever with the same group of strings is pretty seemless

Fred Treece · Post by **Fred Treece** » 20 Sep 2018 7:27 am

Lower register single note pentatonics from string 10 to 5 over the I and V (with E lower) chords.

John Sluszny · Post by **John Sluszny** » 20 Sep 2018 9:56 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yrkc_ItiYg

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 20 Sep 2018 10:15 am

John - that's a perfect illustration of the voicings that are available with lowering the 9th!

Dale Rottacker · Post by **Dale Rottacker** » 20 Sep 2018 10:39 am

This is mostly 9th string lower on my RKR where I also raise 7 a half and a whole...
I also lower the 9th string a whole on LKR where I lower 6 a whole. So you might hear that as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEMi_hgWZJE

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 20 Sep 2018 11:13 am

That's lovely, Dale!

Is your entire E9 copedant posted anywhere? I'd like to see it.

Dale Rottacker · Post by **Dale Rottacker** » 20 Sep 2018 11:36 am

Roger Rettig wrote:That's lovely, Dale!

Is your entire E9 copedant posted anywhere? Iâ€™d like to see it.

Thanks Roger, here ya go

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 20 Sep 2018 11:45 am

Wow! Food for thought there!

I have never grasped the value of moving the 7th string along with 2 and 9 but you do it and so does Tommy White so greater brains than mine can clearly see its uses.

Are the MSAs triple raise and lower?

Thanks for that, Dale.

Dale Rottacker · Post by **Dale Rottacker** » 20 Sep 2018 11:57 am

Roger Rettig wrote:Wow! Food for thought there!

I have never grasped the value of moving the 7th string along with 2 and 9 but you do it and so does Tommy White so greater brains than mine can clearly see its uses.

Are the MSAs triple raise and lower?

Thanks for that, Dale.

Theyâ€™re 4 Raise 3 Lower Roger... That 7th whole raise is nice when you use the AB pedals with it... It moves the 6th string G# away from the 7th string which is now a G#... I donâ€™t know what chord that makes, but I think itâ€™s pretty

The whole lower of 9 with the whole lower of 6 with the split from the B pedal is nice too, and you can throw in the E lower with it as well... Again, my Theory sucks, but its pretty

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 21 Sep 2018 4:19 am

Dale:

Thanks for your response. I thought I'd bought my last steel but my Emmons, as much as I love it, is starting to feel stodgy these days. Pedals and knees require too much effort and I long for a deft and faster-responding mechanism. Those MSAs seem to set the bar in terms of mechanics.

One last '?' - LKLB? 'Backwards', maybe?

I just shared that live clip of Buddy playing 'Shenandoah' over on Facebook! Talk about mastery of suspensions and passing chords! Wow. More '9th string lower' involved there, too.

Dale Rottacker · Post by **Dale Rottacker** » 21 Sep 2018 4:59 am

Roger Rettig wrote:Dale:

Those MSAs seem to set the bar in terms of mechanics.

One last '?' - LKLB? 'Backwards', maybe?

I just shared that live clip of Buddy playing 'Shenandoah' over on Facebook! Talk about mastery of suspensions and passing chords! Wow. More â€˜9th string lower' involved there, too.

Roger I could be a little partial, but I think youâ€™d really be happy with a new MSA... Theyâ€™re the most even, balanced guitar Iâ€™ve ever played. And some of the MECHANICALLY ADVANCED features you canâ€™t really appreciate until youâ€™ve sat behind one, needing to widen the knee lever spacing or raise a pedal a little that may be too low because you just happen to find yourself on a shag rug.

LKLB= the Left Knee Lever closest to me... I wish there was a STANDARD for what to call that Knee Lever, but Iâ€™ve seen several ways to label it, I just chose this one.

I heard your post on FB... Buddy is the MASTER!!!

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 21 Sep 2018 9:05 am

Not really a standard to my knowledge, but I have seen staggered levers marked as LKLF = left knee left front meaning closest to the front of the guitar, and LKLB towards the back of the guitar.

Kyle Everson · Post by **Kyle Everson** » 21 Sep 2018 11:41 am

If you lower your 10th string a whole step, the 9th string half lower becomes the third of a nice strummable A6th chord. Also adds a nice 3 to sus4 in the pedals down position by engaging and then releasing the lever.