Charlie McDonald's Idea

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Dec 2005 4:00 pm

Charlie posted this chart in another topic:

Several of us expressed concern that the middle F# was missing. We believe that it's a mistake to remove either of the F# strings from the copedent. Also, I pointed out: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Charlie, the ultra-low voicing of A-C#-E will sound like mud. The best chord voicings use wider intervals in the lower registers. That's why the P8 pedal of the C6th gives you A-E-A-C#-E (no low C#).

Put the F# strings back in. Trust us on this one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm concerned that Al Terhune's original topic "10th string lower to A on pedal A" is being diluted by a sidebar discussion, so I've opened this topic.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 12 Dec 2005 4:22 pm

To each his own but I found that I almost never used the strings below my E .054". So I got rid of them. That reminds me of a big band composer I know, who wrote a tune based on the "rhythm changes", dedicated it to the cockroaches in his kitchen, and named it "I Got Rid Of Them". But I digress.

If I really need low notes below that low E, I use a pedal to yank it way down.[This message was edited by Earnest Bovine on 12 December 2005 at 04:22 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Dec 2005 4:27 pm

Just throwing out an idea here: <pre> LKR LKL P1 P2 P3
F#
D#
G# A
E D# F F#
B C# C#
G# A
F#
E D# F
C# B
A
E C#
A </pre>[This message was edited by b0b on 12 December 2005 at 04:28 PM.]

Michael Barone · Post by **Michael Barone** » 12 Dec 2005 4:40 pm

On a standard E9, I use the 7th string F# frequently. I think it is essential when using the related 6th tuning. With pedals down, it provides the sixth. with E's lowered, it provides the fifth. I raise it to "G" with string 1, on a lever, to created an inverted dom 7th, with pedals down, quite handy while doing chord melody or other things on top of the chord.

As a sub-intermediate player, if I had an S12, I would try the Extended E9 first, at least for a period of time where I can decide if I can do without the "D" string (string 8 on E9), and get it on a lever.

Just my thoughts. I'm sure there will be loads more below.

Good Luck with your S12 Charlie!

Mike

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 12 Dec 2005 5:38 pm

Charlie didn't give up his F# capability, he does it like a lot of steel players do, with a pedal and a Lever if need be. Standardization of setups, tunings, pedals, and levers is wishful thinking in the current Pedal Steel Guitar world. Believe it.
Phred

MUSICO · Post by **MUSICO** » 13 Dec 2005 2:00 am

Charlie,

I agree with bOb´s description of those real low strings as muddy sounding.

The 10th string on the C6th neck and the 12th string on a universal are real "be your own bass player" stuff. Now, think about it. If you had a real bass player ¿would you want him to play chords?

Jeremy Williams
Barcelona Spain

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 13 Dec 2005 6:00 am

Thanks, Bobby, for starting this.
It was an attempt to economize the tuning.
B0b said 'don't.' So did Mike Perlowin.
Ed Packard wouldn't even speak to me.
Thus forewarned by a good hundred years of combined experience, I put the F#'s back and stepped slowly away from the virtual guitar.
Would this meet the named criteria?

<pre> LKL LKR P0 P1 P2 P3
F#
D#
G# F# A
E D# F#
B C# C#
G# F# A A
F#
E D# F# D#
B C#
G# A
E
A </pre>

This is an attempt to reconcile an S12 with Ed Packard's PST series, where P3 (PX) is the gateway to the 13th series. This is conceptually a Day setup, which I find to be more ergonomic for me. The corresponding L< lower and L> raise on E makes for more spatially related moves, to be brief.
With seven pedals to play with, PO is still there, as it makes an easy V chord (L< + PO), and resolves I by moving ii out of suspension to iii. I think it's a brilliant add-on.

And gives me a chance to ask: Why the E->F raise? On a standard copedent, A+LKL and C+LKR both produce VImaj. There may be other good reasons for it, but having E->F# gives an additional IImin. (L> + B+C).

That may explain the proposed missing middle F#, but I'm nonetheless putting that aside for now. As Phred says:

Standardization of setups, tunings, pedals, and levers is wishful thinking in the current Pedal Steel Guitar world.

Whether wishful thinking or the reality of things, I'm not a big fan of standardization; one's setup determines what one can play, and I'm looking at it in reverse order (what I want to play determining the setup). PSG offers opportunities for customization that few instruments do, and the possibilities can keep it interesting.

I also wish strings were numbered lo to hi.
Nonetheless, it may be best to remain conversant with the SG world, particularly with respect to Ed's 13th series, and bearing in mind the experience of others.
But someday....[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 13 December 2005 at 06:14 AM.]

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 13 Dec 2005 6:14 am

Charlie, I find the F# indespensible when playing single note licks. With pedals up,or down, it needs to be there to play "scales".
That's my opinion.......JD

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www.phelpscountychoppers.com/steelguitar

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 13 Dec 2005 6:38 am

Charlie,
The fact that you're questioning and thinking about this stuff is admirable. There is one flaw, however. There are great reasons for why the E9 tuning is as it is. The A to F lever is not (only) to get a VI chord -- it can certainly do that -- but it provides a vehicle for linear progression of scale tones up the neck. GMaj NP @ 3rd fret --> A+F @ 6th fret --> E to D# lever @ 8th fret --> A+B @ 10th fret.

Also, as I've pointed out at least once, you will tie your ankle in a knot trying to use the B pedal with LKL.

Do you not care about learning from others? If not, COOL. If so, I'd advise more careful consideration of starting off with a well established standard setup. You're really not going to know what to eliminate if you don't really know what it's for. Eh?

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 13 Dec 2005 7:18 am

Larry, I'm still looking at a virtual guitar; I'm going to go with the setup as it arrives, altho the photo of the undercarriage doesn't quite match the description (Emmons on pedals 1-2-3 RKL-Lowers 4-8 RKR-raises 4-8 LKL-Lowers 2 LKR Raises 7-1.) [he may have some of his L's and R's switched], so I'll have to actually see it. It is my intention to embrace E9, convinced by you and many others that it is indeed well worked-out over time.

Do you not care about learning from others?

Of course not; if so, I wouldn't be an avid reader of the forum. I agree, familiarity with the standard setup is important in determining what changes, if any, would be more useful once I actually develop a style.

I don't see how one can keep from learning on the backs of others. Bach discovered every chord in its basics, and you can't play jazz without them. As I said on Al Terhune's thread, a man would be a fool to ignore several hunderd years of combined experience. But I must bear in mind that I see things spatially--chord changes in space, with a definite lo/hi correspondence of moves.
I am grateful for you advice and that of others. I'm at the 'I'm not worthy' stage, and beholdened to Bobby for not starting this thread in humor!

But I must add--yes, I realize philosophy bores many people, and I try to minimize it--that PSG is currently at a plateau in its development, and can cite similar opinions of others. So I'll always have an eye toward change, particularly in adapting to the 13th series. But I may have to have a 14-stringer to do that. Later. Maybe as soon as March when I check out Ed's PST Sierra. (It's a keyless 25" scale, and I think that is a major improvement in hardward. His complete view of the 13th series is amazing in its scope.) And The Beast remains to me as the pinnacle of psg development. 'The steel guitar is much under-utilized.'-- my bro Dan Dryden, Philip Glass' sound man in NYC.
But first, I'll adapt to a proper S12. If you can make such music from it, how can I go wrong?
By the way, I think you should publish your setup in b0b's column of copdedants.
Think I'll do a search.
Thanks, as always.
[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 13 December 2005 at 07:28 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 13 Dec 2005 7:47 am

Mike Perlowin and Ed Packard both use a 2nd string C#. The bottom A is my input--got to have that A bass with a strong 5th.
Everything in between--there are more copedants than you can shake a stick at.
I can't even FIND a standardized setup.
It takes a lot of borrowing from here and there.
I can't think of anyone who has tried any harder to learn from so many sources than me (except for maybe Larry). If one setup took everything into account, there wouldn't be so many.

I've checked out Larry's site; he does a good job of tracing the development of E9 and universal.[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 13 December 2005 at 07:50 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 13 Dec 2005 8:37 am

I agree with Larry that the AF combination is not just for a VI chord, but is also for getting I, V, II, III, or any other major chord between the open pedal position and the AB pedal down position. These in-between uses of the AF combination allow playing scales and melodies with chord harmony. It has similar uses in minor keys. You will see most players hitting that combination over and over in passing, when playing leads, fills and melodies.

I understand your desire to keep the knees going left to flat and right to sharp. But the F and E-lower lever get used more for chords than for single note changes like you are thinking. For chord work, they should be wherever they work good with other levers and pedals. On uni, I want the E-lower lever (which gives the B6 configuration) on my volume pedal leg. That leg already has limited lever and pedal use because of the volume pedal. Having that leg pinned down holding the E-lower lever is tolerable. Having my left leg pinned that way is intolerable. If you can get all the chords you need, the single notes for scales and melodies will automatically be there, because they are all a part of one or more chords.

I agree with those above about the lack of usefulness of the low strings for lead work, especially for country. But I use those low strings on my uni a lot for rhythm work and power chords in rock, blues and jazz. And surprisingly, on the few classical pieces I am working on, I use them extensively for low harmony and even for low melody variations. The low harmony strings seem especially essential for minor chords and keys. This leads me to a big problem I would have with your above copedent, the lack of the low C# on the A pedal. That is the low root of the principle minor position on E9, the A pedal down position. This has become my favorite position on uni for minor blues and pentatonic jazz. It is difficult to appreciate on paper, but this position, including the F# on string 7 and a vertical lever raising 7 and 1 to G, gives over two octaves of pentatonic scale notes. I live in that box for whole songs. Discovering this box is one reason I moved quickly from extended E9 to uni (discovering B6 was the other reason).

Here's what is keeping me busy learning these days: <pre> LKL LKV LKR 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 RKL RKR
F AB7th A B C BW 5 6 7 EL D
1 F# G,G#
2 D# C# D,C#
3 G# A
4 E F F# E Eb
5 B C# C# C#
6 G# A Bb
7 F# G,G# F
8 E F D F# D Eb
9 B C# C [Bb]
10 G# A
11 E F (F#,G) D# F (F#)
12 B C# G# C#</pre>
The changes in parentheses are prospective. I would also like to lose pedal 6 (which came with the guitar and duplicates LKR) and mover everything over and add the Franklin changes or something else to the left of the A pedal. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 16 December 2005 at 06:14 AM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 13 Dec 2005 8:39 am

I found over the years that I know of no perfect tuning yet for Pedal Steel guitar, to do all things for everyone.

I have never asked b0b to list my tunings on his Tunings Page. But he is welcome to it if he wishes.

I have my "Lean and Mean" S10, "the Real Universal" S12 and a few others 13, 14 stringers, on my Website that might give a few ideas on different pulls.

On E9/B6,Dropping that E do D for E7, loses the E, Raising the B to a D on the E9/B6 tuning loses the B(the strong 5th).

Carl Dixon,( Thanks your for all your great posts,) raised BOth the (9th St)B to a D and the (10th st)G# to a B, and got his 5th back. This way you can do a strum and play like the sacred tuning does too. For different rhythm effects.

Larry Bell's will do the job for most everyone on a S12. Check out his Website...al

Merry Christmas.

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 13 Dec 2005 8:46 am

Why the E to F? Oh my! The F lever is the single most-used lever on my guitar. How can I explain...

There are 3 major chord positions on the E chord strings. Open, A+B and A+F. I hardly ever use A+F to get a VI chord. I use it to get any major chord.

If you don't have a D# on your 2nd string, you lose a melody note in two open positions (I and IV) and all 3 A+F positions (I, IV and V). Some people seem to do fine with the 2nd string tuned to D or C#. Some people never use their F lever.

What's the standard? Well, for E9th the standard is the 3+3 that I describe on this page. Beyond that there is no real consensus. It's personal preference. We almost came to agreement about F# to G as the 4th lever back in the 80's, but then someone started raising F# to G# on a lot of hit records and all hell broke loose.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog [This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 13 December 2005 at 08:48 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 13 Dec 2005 9:14 am

In the time I've been without guitar, I've done more poring over copedants from every source I could find, in an attempt to glean the best established ideas. But as Bobby himself says

What's the standard? Well, for E9th the standard is the 3+3 that I describe on this page. Beyond that there is no real consensus. It's personal preference. We almost came to agreement about F# to G as the 4th lever back in the 80's, but then someone started raising F# to G# on a lot of hit records and all hell broke loose.

So what's it to be? F# to G#? F# to G?
I want that ii to iii resolution, and PST has a G pedal (PY) that is used in combination with PX.
In this topic alone there are several solutions. How does one arrive at one?
I can think of no alternative but experimentation, the thing that is discouraged.
There seems to be a disdain for the Day setup, which without question is more ergonomic when the corresponding F raise and lower are correctly assigned.

I fear I've opened up a can of worms, but this can has been opened many times.
No wonder the beginner gets confused by which 'standard' to follow! The more I learn, the less I know. You may not realize it, but with all the contributions, I'm being driven back to find my own way.
"Give up learning; it will be better for all of us." --Lao Tzu. (Of course, there was nothing more complex than the p'ai peh in those days.)

Well, I'll do the best I can. Just please don't confuse my curiosity with rebelliousness for its own sake.
Now I have a lot of studying to do of these posts. Thanks all.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 13 Dec 2005 9:23 am

Just a footnote: my search for an extended bass started with Al Marcus 'learn and mean' series. To me, Al is the Godfather of steel. Can't help it. So I look on his Uni chart, and lo, no F#'s except for str. 1! Man am I confused now.

Anybody want to buy the most beautiful black MSA you've ever seen? Contact me in a couple of weeks. I'll even set it up for you, with no questions asked.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 13 Dec 2005 9:48 am

There seems to be a disdain for the Day setup, which without question is more ergonomic when the corresponding F raise and lower are correctly assigned.

Not "without question", as many people find the Emmons ABC arrangement quite comfortable and ergonomic, myself included.

I don't think that it's "disdain", either. The simple truth is that manufacturers had to choose one or the other for their stock copedent. Thousands of guitars were built as ABC by default, and thousands of steelers learned to play them. I've never seen a negative attitude towards CBA expressed anywhere. It's just a simple fact that 3 of 4 E9th players use the Emmons ABC.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 13 Dec 2005 10:58 am

What constitutes good ergonomics is a subjective opinion that varies from preson to person.

Emmons (E) to Day (D) player ratios vary by region. In some areas of the country the split (all puns intended) reaches 50/50. Overall, the split appears to be greater than 90/10.

The main reason most manufacturers make Emmons steups as a defacto standard is because there are more Emmons setup players.

We just build 'em with the setup you guys specify. Note, it makes almost no difference to a beginner. As long as you have the necessary functions in a somewhat sensible location, the setup (E or D) makes no difference.[This message was edited by John Fabian on 13 December 2005 at 11:01 AM.]

Jerry Hayes R.I.P. · Post by **Jerry Hayes R.I.P.** » 13 Dec 2005 11:45 am

I agree with Earnest B. about the low strings. I played a "standard" E9/B6 tuning for quite a few years and then a couple of years ago I just dropped the low B and moved the G# and E strings down to positions 11 & 12. Where the "normal" 9th string is a D note I tune that to C# as well as the 2nd string which I also tune to C#. I still kept the majority of the B6th pedals and also added a "Mooney" pedal in position 8 which raises strings 4 & 8 to F# which I really like. If I need to go lower than the E, I have a lower on the bottom of my pedal one which lowers string 12 (E to C#) and raises string 7 (F# to G#). I use that pedal a lot with the knee lever which raises 4 & 8 to F....JH in Va.

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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 13 Dec 2005 3:36 pm

Charlie, Al (who I agree is one of the Godfather's of steel) left out the F# as a major compromise to get a universal 10-string. He had to give up something, and he made a not unwise choice for an S10. With a 12-string you don't have to make that huge compromise. As for the choice of G or G# on strings 7 and 1, I put the full step raise there to try out. I liked the unison 5ths I get there in the A-pedal minor position, so I left it like that. I get the G with the half-lever. Someday I will put a feel stop there, but amazingly enough, I'm doing pretty good hitting the G even without a feel stop. If I had to choose, I'd choose the G, simply because it's a note I don't otherwise have, and I already have a G#.

There's nothing wrong with experimenting - that's how we got where we are. But reinventing the wheel is unnecessary and a waste of your time. I think most of us would advise anyone starting out to get a very standard setup for 3&4 on E9 and live with it for a year or so - and learn to use all of it (also nothing wrong with trying a standard S10 C6, D10 or S12 uni). Get a 5th lever and/or extra pedal to experiment with, but leave the string tuning as it is. It may seem conformist at first; but remember, you are then standing on the shoulders of the best who ever played the instrument, and the thousands of hours of experimentation they did over decades. You will also be able to sit down to most pedal steels (at shops and shows and other steelers' homes) and be able to get the basics, and will be able to use most of the tab that is out there. Once you have the standard under your belt for awhile, you will be in a much better position to consider what personal changes might improve it for the kind of stuff you want to play. For the first few years, practice will get you way more notes than copedent changes. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 13 December 2005 at 03:52 PM.]

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 13 Dec 2005 6:46 pm

There seems to be a disdain for the Day setup, which without question is more ergonomic when the corresponding F raise and lower are correctly assigned.

Where in the heck do you think you have a Day setup? You may have the E to D# lever on lkl, but other than that, there is no resemblance to a Day setup at all (I have been playing Day for 30 years or so). Your A & B pedals are still set up as Emmons. The E to F# lever you have on LKR is not a good substitute for the E to F lever (or the C pedal for that matter). Even with a half stop, you are going to find it difficult to hit that F on fast runs.

I'm glad to see you listened about the F# strings as they are very important to this tuning.

I'm not sure what kind of music you plan to play, but for country, I find this to be a very disfunctional tuning. You may be playing something different that this tuning may be appropriate for, who knows.

As far as experimentation goes, more power to anyone who dares to experiment and challenge the boundaries to better the instrument, as long as that is their intent. I've known players who want to have different (meaning totally non-standard and sometimes downright wierd) just so they can say they are different from the rest. These players are often hurt by these decisions.

but, I will say, seeing as it seems you have a spare guitar now to try this tuning out, it will be interesting to hear what conclusions you come to. Good luck to you.

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Carter D10 9p/9k, NV400, Korg Triton Le88 Synth, Korg CX-3 organ, Yamaha Motif Rack Module, Regal Dobro, Tele, Gretsch Acoustic.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 14 Dec 2005 4:48 am

I find this to be a very disfunctional tuning.

Maybe I'm just putting the fun back in dysfunctional.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 14 Dec 2005 7:04 am

Call me brave, call me stupid, just don't call me Chuck.
See if this doesn't meet some of the criteria discussed. Emmons? Day? McDonald.
I can do it with the hardware that comes on the MSA.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 14 Dec 2005 8:27 am

Make no doubt about it -- this IS THE EMMONS SETUP
The Emmons split includes B to C# on a pedal to the LEFT of the G# to A changes
If it were the Day split, pedals 1 and 2 would be reversed. LKL is most easily combined with p0 or p1, so most players put E to F there when using the Emmons split. By the same token, the E to D# lever is most often combined with the B pedal (p2 in your chart). The way you have it is reversed from what most players prefer.

It's really very similar to my open tuning. I wouldn't mix the G#'s on the top with the A's on the bottom, but that's just me.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 14 December 2005 at 08:33 AM.]

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 14 Dec 2005 10:13 am

Charlie...You got a one of two sentence answer to your email about leaving out the F# (and some other) because leaving out the F# blows the E9 like structure, the B6 like structure, and totaly blows the 13th series; so scale runners, lick flippers, and chord chasers are all losers.

Re "experimenters"...think Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day, Bill Stafford, Chalker, Tharpe, J Byrd, Alvino Rey, Eddie Alkire, Leavit(sp?), and a lot of "unheard ofs".

One chap that you might have heard of that experimented was Hal Rugg. He liked his C#s among other things like Day setup re AB and associated levers. Even at the end He was trying to "improve" his setup for functionality for the type of music he wanted to play.

Just before he really got bad off, he came up to Show Low for the purpose of working on setup changes that would meet his preferences. We spent the day on my computer using a program that I have developed for such purposes (where the 13th series structure came from).

Playing is NOT the ONLY way to get pleasure from the PSG (and not annoy the neighbors).