P/P Tuning Problem

joe long · Post by **joe long** » 30 Nov 2005 8:03 am

I know this question has been answered many times. My 8th E is not lowering enough. Would appreciate any assistance.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 30 Nov 2005 8:16 am

First tune the changer
Pull the raise finger against the stop and tune the F at the endplate. Push the lower finger against the stop and tune the D#. Now check the raise to F and open string just to be sure nothing has moved.

Do this for both the 8th string and the 4th string, just to be sure the 4th isn't causing problems. It requires more slack because of the C pedal E to F#. Remember that the F is tuned with a half-tone tuner underneath the guitar. So you tune the C pedal as the max raise and the D# as the max lower on the 4th.

Once that's done, it is just a matter of allowing the levers to pull against the stop. If you don't have enough throw, adjust the knee lever stop.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Charles Curtis · Post by **Charles Curtis** » 30 Nov 2005 8:17 am

Check the Carter Guitar web site at...www.steelguitar.com......

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 30 Nov 2005 11:35 am

Larry,
You've confused me

That's not how I tune a PP changer.
Tune the raises at the keyhead, then tune the open and lowers at the endplate.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 30 Nov 2005 12:45 pm

richard - Larry is talking about physically tuning the changer, without the pedals and knee-levers. Once you have the changer tuned (by hand), you make the necessary adjustments to the pedals and knee-levers so they either push or pull the fingers to their desired position.

Lee

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 30 Nov 2005 1:12 pm

Richard,
As pointed out, the term 'tuning the changer' (only done with push-pull guitars) involves ensuring that the changer is calibrated for the maximum raise and lower so that those changes pull the fingers snug against the stops.

====EDITED=====
You pull the raise finger against the stop to get the maximum musical interval change and tune that note at the KEYHEAD. Release the finger and tune the unaltered note at the ENDPLATE (top hole) Then you push the lower finger against the stop and tune the maximum lower change using the lower hole in the ENDPLATE.
=================

The objective is to avoid overshooting the maximum raise or lower and simplify tuning so that the pedal or lever will be in tune once it hits the changer stop. Synchronizing the pedal or lever travel to just hit the changer stop is the objective.

You are correct -- when in a playing situation you tune the maximum raise first -- at the keyhead -- then let off and tune the 'unraised' note at the endplate. Then you tune the maximum lower at the endplate. Naturally, any intermediate raises or lowers must be tuned underneath with half tone tuners.

Sorry for any confusion. It CAN be confusing.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 01 December 2005 at 05:46 PM.]

joe long · Post by **joe long** » 1 Dec 2005 5:09 am

Thanks for all the help. I'll give it a try.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 1 Dec 2005 12:57 pm

A picture says a thousand words, or in this case 3000

[This message was edited by richard burton on 01 December 2005 at 02:14 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 1 Dec 2005 1:31 pm

or, courtesy of Carter's Info Site
RAISING

LOWERING

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 1 Dec 2005 1:51 pm

That is truely amazing!

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 1 Dec 2005 2:19 pm

Larry,
I must be having a senior moment.
I don't understand when you say 'tune the F at the endplate'
The F is a raise, and surely should be tuned at the keyhead??
Or have I been doing it all wrong for 25 years??

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 1 Dec 2005 5:43 pm

Richard is correct
I've been playing my all pull guitars lately and didn't say what I meant.

The best description of the process is on John Lacey's Wilderness Guide http://www.melmusic.com/laceyj/guide.html

You pull the raise finger to the stop and tune the F at the KEYHEAD
Release the raise finger and tune the E at the ENDPLATE (top hole)
Then tune the D# at the ENDPLATE (bottom hole)

I was the one with the senior moment. Sorry Richard.

I changed the description above as well.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 1 Dec 2005 6:00 pm

When tuning a push-pull the changer must be in tune first before moving and thing crucial. Otherwise you are causing yourself a lot of unwanted aggravation. This is what is being referred to.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 2 Dec 2005 7:29 am

Sorry about pulling you up about that, Larry, but the potential for confusion among push-pullers was getting in the danger zone !!

It's very unusual for you to make a mistake.

I always read your posts, as there is so much commonsense and useful information imparted.

R B

john widgren · Post by **john widgren** » 2 Dec 2005 7:56 am

Make sure you have enough backslack on 8. Even if the changer is in tune, if you do not have enough backslack (or space between the bellcrank and raise collar) the tension on the raise portion of the finger (at the fish hook) will not allow that (raise) part of the finger to drop all the way to the lower tuning setscrew along with the lowering portion of the finger. In other words, the raise part of the finger will be "hung up" not allowing enough room to drop to the desired pitch.[This message was edited by john widgren on 02 December 2005 at 09:42 AM.]