Williams Guitar pedal travel

KENNY KRUPNICK · Post by **KENNY KRUPNICK** » 9 Nov 2005 8:56 am

How is the pedal travel on Williams,short,long,or is it adjustable?Is there helper springs? I would think that the trvel would be short for smooth,quick playing.It's my understanding that this isn't feasable becase of detuning,but it should be adjustable like all other guitars.
Someone shed some facts on this please.

Paul Brainard · Post by **Paul Brainard** » 9 Nov 2005 11:14 am

Like any steel you can change the leverages on the bellcrank & changer to get a longer & softer or shorter & stiffer feel. The laws of physics being what they are (conservation of energy?) for a given scale length, pitch, and string gauge, you're always going to have to put the same amount of work (force over distance) into pushing a pedal/lever to change that string to its pulled pitch, no matter what brand of guitar. Helper springs may factor in there by adding some force or overcoming the initial resistance to start the travel - but the Williams doesn't have them. It does have adjustable return springs.

When I had a Williams I found it to be exceptionally smooth & positive, mostly (I think) to do with the delrin bushings & bearings he uses everywhere and maybe the thick & relatively heavy pedal rods which seemed to give a little extra momentum to the movement (maybe gravity can act like a helper spring?)

Also I remember seeing a chart made by a local steel builder which measured detuning (pitch change on 4th str. E when pressing A & B peds) on a number of leading steel brands, and Williams was one of the very lowest, something like 3 or 4 cents (most were in the 5-10 range). . .

KENNY KRUPNICK · Post by **KENNY KRUPNICK** » 14 Nov 2005 10:38 am

Anymore factual comments?

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 14 Nov 2005 11:00 am

I play a Williams. They are a very smoooooth playing guitar. However, in regards to pedal travel, I had Bill move the pedal rods closer to the pivot point on the pedal bar. It was only about 1/4" but it sure made a difference to me. I was used to the Emmons and Sho~Bud pedal action and the pedal rod location on the Williams just didn't feel quite right. I also kept bumping the top of my shoe on the rod.
Bill is very accommodating, I just sent him the pedals and he moved the pin location at no charge.

Erv

Gary Preston · Post by **Gary Preston** » 14 Nov 2005 5:08 pm

Hi Kenny . I suppose when you are use to playing a guitar for a long period of time that it would be hard to feel comfortable playing another brand of guitar .Unless the action was very close . I saw where another manufacturer offers some kind of apparatus that can be added to the underside of the guitar that helps it stay in tune . Sounds strange huh ? Or at least it does to me . G.P. [This message was edited by Gary Preston on 14 November 2005 at 05:11 PM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 14 Nov 2005 5:30 pm

Erv-I had the lsame problem with my Williams, My toe kept hitting the pedal rods. I didn't like that feature, but didn't have Bill change it like you did. Good idea!.....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 14 Nov 2005 5:46 pm

Helper springs... Guys, not to digress, but could someone name off some guitar brands that do use helper springs for the raise for me (besides Sho-Bud)? Thanks!

Hans Holzherr · Post by **Hans Holzherr** » 15 Nov 2005 8:04 am

ZumSteel
Excel
Schild
?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 15 Nov 2005 8:11 am

Franklin

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 15 Nov 2005 11:43 am

Al,
Are your pull rods located on the top or the side of your foot pedals?

KENNY KRUPNICK · Post by **KENNY KRUPNICK** » 15 Nov 2005 11:46 am

Yes, Zumsteel uses helper springs.
Erv, Did moving the rod connectors closer to the pivot point on the pedals decrease the pedal travel on your Williams? This is the important question,and along with that, did it create any body drop?

How about your knee levers? Is the travel short on them also?

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 15 Nov 2005 2:47 pm

Kenny,
No, moving the pivot point on the pedals would actually increase the pedal travel and decrease the effort required to press them down.

The knee levers are just about right for me. I like my knee levers set up quite snug with very little slop in them. I had Bill Rudolph make me some longer knee levers as the standard length ones came to the middle of my left knee and were uncomfortable. I even changed the angle of the dangle of the LKL lever so the paddle part fit my knee better.

There WAS a reason Sho~Bud had that lever mounted at an angle, remember?

Erv

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 16 Nov 2005 3:45 pm

Thanks guys... (and Erv, you're right on about the Sho-Bud LKL; according to Ricky Davis, Fulawkas are angled too, but on a straight shaft)
Hmm... I've never heard of Schild before... Interesting. Well, thanks again.

Fred Amendola · Post by **Fred Amendola** » 16 Nov 2005 3:54 pm

My Carter came with a few strategically placed helper springs.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 16 Nov 2005 9:51 pm

My Carter had no helper springs when I had it, it sure had a few when I sold it.

Hans Holzherr · Post by **Hans Holzherr** » 16 Nov 2005 10:09 pm

Duane: The Schild was made in Switzerland and served as the model for another, better-known guitar called the Wiesner. For the whole story, go to http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/004662.html
While the Wiesner line ended with Paul Wiesner's death, the Schild will be revived shortly, with many features redesigned and improved.

Hans

jim milewski · Post by **jim milewski** » 17 Nov 2005 3:25 am

On my Emmons I did what Erv did for all the same reasons and like it much better

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 17 Nov 2005 7:40 am

With a pedal steel, one size does not fit all. If there is something about your guitar that you don't like, there are a lot of things you can do about it yourself. I've even relocated some knee levers to be more playable.
Erv

KENNY KRUPNICK · Post by **KENNY KRUPNICK** » 17 Nov 2005 10:19 am

When changing the pivot point on the pedals,wheather at the pedal itself,or at the changer underneath, did you notice any increase in body drop?

Paul Brainard · Post by **Paul Brainard** » 17 Nov 2005 11:30 am

FYI I gather that Bill is now attaching his pedal rods on the side of the pedals instead of in the middle.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 17 Nov 2005 2:36 pm

Kenny,
Why would changing the pivot affect body drop?

Paul,
When Bill built mine, I could have had the pedal rod attached either way. I liked on the side though. More room for the toe of your shoe.

Erv

KENNY KRUPNICK · Post by **KENNY KRUPNICK** » 17 Nov 2005 10:01 pm

Erv, That's what I'm trying to find out.It's my understanding that the reason that the pedal travel is long on Williams guitars,is because if they were fixed with a short pedal travel,then it would be more pressure at the changer, therfore causing body drop.Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Williams dosen't have helper springs either.
I'm just trying to get to why this supposedly can't be fixed on these guitars.
I would think it can be done.All others do.

Hans Holzherr · Post by **Hans Holzherr** » 18 Nov 2005 12:52 am

My take on it is this: Cabinet drop is totally independent of pedal travel, but a function of the force required to balance the string tension, or the tension of the lower return spring, respectively. Helper springs not only make the action of pedals and levers softer; they also serve to pre-tighten the guitar body by a certain amount, so that the remaining force required to effect a pitch change will not distort the geometry as much as if the full force had to be applied to the respective changer finger.

Hans[This message was edited by Hans Holzherr on 18 November 2005 at 12:53 AM.]

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 18 Nov 2005 6:33 am

Helper springs actually increase the load on the changer axle.
Imagine the finger as a vertical see-saw.
There's 25 pounds of string pressure, trying to pull the changer axle closer to the nut.
Now put a helper spring on the underside of the steel, until it actually balances the finger. That spring is exerting 25 pounds of pressure.
Even though the finger can be easily moved, because it is in equilibrium, the changer axle is under double the pressure, ie 50 pounds.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 18 Nov 2005 8:22 am

Kenny,
I have played several different brands of pedal steels over the years and the Williams does not suffer from "cabinet drop" even if you fasten the pedal rods from the ceiling fan.

Erv