New Sierra Half-Stop

[b0b]

Ross Shafer just installed a half-stop mechanism on my 2017 Sierra prototype. On my D6th tuning, RKR raises both B's to C. With the half stop, they also raise to C#. Both of them. The C stop is firm and in tune on both strings.



The standard C6th P4 raises strings 4 and 8 a whole step. That's what this lever does when you push past the half-stop.

[Jim Palenscar]

Nice job Ross

[Greg Cutshaw]

I'm having my tool room do something similar on my Excel which also has to mount on one of the side rails. The new Lloyd Green tabs are sending back to half stop land!

[Larry Allen]

This is Wolf's Real Stop...works great on my RKL. E-Eb-D...I use them on all my steels...Larry

[John Goux]

That is something I’d like to try, the half stop to lower Es to D# to D. That would be logical and make the D string easier to forget.
John

[Larry Allen]

John, this tuning started with that 1/2 stop on my RKL..opened up the low end...

[James Collett]

Ross does great work. Being able to precisely time the pulls opens up so many more setup possibilities.

[b0b]

Here's what my copedent looks like now, with the double half-stop:

[John Goux]

Bob, you D6 is very intriguing because it has elements of both E9 and C6 copeds, and is pitched half way between, making the complexity of 12 strings unnecessary to have the low notes. And the high 3rd degree string probably sounds better than our .011 in E9.

Can you please post some of your playing so we can hear how the coped performs? The better the recording, the more we can tell, but anything will do, even a cell phone at a gig would help.
It is such a major commitment to change tunings and copeds. The more info we have the better.

John

[Earnest Bovine]

Bob, you D6 is very intriguing because it has elements of both E9 and C6 copeds, and is pitched half

It's something like red Rhodes E flat 6th
https://steelguitarforum.com/Archives/A ... 09669.html

[Jerry Overstreet]

That feel stop looks perfect b0b. The precision machining and engineering of these new Ross Sierra guitars is top drawer for sure.

[b0b]

Can you please post some of your playing so we can hear how the coped performs? The better the recording, the more we can tell, but anything will do, even a cell phone at a gig would help.

It is such a major commitment to change tunings and copeds. The more info we have the better.

John

I haven't recorded the 10-string copedent yet, John. I have a couple of gigs next weekend. Maybe I can set up a recorder then, if I have time.

The description of how it works is on my blog site at https://b0b.com/wp/?page_id=551.

[b0b]

I'm not real comfortable with the half-stop yet, and I can't seem to hit harmonics to save my life tonight. That said, here's a home recording of the Sierra. I'm using a Telonics pickup and volume pedal, a Neunaber Echelon echo and a little GK MB108 bass amp. Not my best tone, but I didn't want to wake anyone.

https://soundhost.net/2018/04/d6th-demo/

An original ballad full of jazz chords starts it. Then I butcher Blue Jade at about 2:30. Some bluesy swing starts at about 6:00. It goes country for a while at 8:30.

The second track is through the Milkman amp.

I'll try to record with the band this weekend.

[Russ Wever]

The C stop is firm and in tune on both strings.

In case you wanted to tweak or temper one a bit
differently (cents-wise) than the other, or if
you would opt to alter string gauges, how does
this Half-Stop allow for the independent tuning
of the two (higher and lower) 'middle' (C) notes?


~Rw

[Chris Reesor]

I am guessing the infinitely variable bell cranks giving you complete control over pull timing are the key here. If we were talking lowers, the split screws would come into play, but this lever is raises, so it will be interesting to see what b0b and Ross have to say to your question.
This is a very impressive guitar, to say the least.
Kudos to Ross !

[b0b]

I think the bell cranks solve that problem. You don't have to pick a slot for the rods - you just adjust them up and down with a screwdriver. The start and final stop can be perfectly timed for both strings. Once timed, the octave stays in tune throughout the travel.

The fact that both strings are tuned to the same notes is probably important. If the strings were tuned differently, the half stop might not be in tune. Some people raise the 1st string F# to G# and lower the 6th G# to F#. A half stop on the G on both strings might not tune up as nicely unless you were in equal temperament on all notes.

That's my theory, anyway.

[John Goux]

Bob, thanks for posting those sound files of the coped. Nice playing. And the guitar sounds very sweet.
John

[Russ Wever]

. . Once timed, the octave stays
in tune throughout the travel.

. . but if you choose to tune temper,
let's say, the higher C to 439 and the
lower C to 436 . . is that not 'do-able'?

Not able to see the bell-cranks at full
'profile' but are they of the the Blanton
design?
~Rw

[b0b]

Russ,

I don't know why anyone would want an octave to be out of tune. Apart from the mechanical challenge, I think it would be hard to play a guitar tuned like that. That said, there's probably a way to do it with more parts. I won't say it's impossible.

Yes, the bell cranks are similar to Blanton's design.

[Russ Wever]

I'll take that as a 'no' and add that my
question was posed only as a question of
mechanical curiosity, since other strings
tuned in octaves are independently tuneable
(speaking of the predominant all-pull type
of mechanism) when they are 'at idle' (tuned
by tuning keys or the like) and when caused
by pedal or knee-lever.
Within the Emmons-style push-pull mechanics,
independent tuning of two strings on a half-
stop is easily done by virtue of that systems'
'half-tone tuners'.
~Rw

[b0b]

I don't know of anyone using a half stop on two strings, where the mid point is independently tuneable for both strings. Maybe Earnest Bovine.

It's fairly common to set the start point of a second change at the half stop, on the 9th string of E9th for example. The Sierra half stop does this quite well, as expected.

[Ross Shafer]

I'd never seen or heard of this before getting requests for it from 3 new Sierra owners. The first two of which I told not to tell anyone about as they are a P.I.A. and make my panties bunch up.....forgot to tell Bobby that!

The adjustable bell cranks play a big role as do the split tuners (for lowers). There's a number of variables at play here as well as a fair bit of luck. The ability to individually fine tune offsets with a double half feel is very limited on raises and less so on lowers.

Blanton Bell Cranks: my bellcranks are similar in concept, but quite different in design. Tony is correct, my bell cranks like the Blantons are significantly more expensive to produce than most standard bell cranks.

I'd never heard about the individually adjustable half feels on a PP. I'll need to check that out as well as whatever Ernesto Bovini has going to achieve this. I'm always ready to learn something new!

[b0b]

When we tuned up mine in Ross's shop it was close, but not exact. I tweaked the pull timing when I got home and now the stop is perfectly in tune on both strings. It's sort of wonderful to hear octaves pulling perfectly together, stopping at a midpoint going up, and stopping again coming back down.

I see what Ross is saying. I imagine a half-stop that raises string 1 and lowers string 6. That could work by using the split tuner on the lower. Raising strings 1 and 7 as octaves should work as mine does.