A, B, C & D with only 8 strings ?

db · Post by db » 8 Apr 2005 3:09 pm

If you had an 8 string PSG with A, B & C pedals and D lever . . . .
(w/o the option of other functions)
What would the tuning be?
Have a 9th ?
One or two chromatics on top?
Or something else all together?

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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 8 Apr 2005 6:59 pm

What kind of music would you be playing? (That might affect our recommendations.)

db · Post by db » 8 Apr 2005 7:06 pm

C & W, Blues & Jazz!
All of the "Modern Music"!
Maybe not "Swing" or "Big Band".
------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 08 April 2005 at 08:14 PM.]

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 9 Apr 2005 12:03 am

This would be my suggestion.
high to low
F#
G#
E
B
G#
F#
E
D
The A peddle would raise the B and lower the D to C#
The B peddle would raise the G#s to A
The C peddle would raise the E and B a whole tone
The knee lever would lower the E's to D# and lower the D to B
Perhaps Bobbe Seymoure could add to this.
[This message was edited by Andy Greatrix on 09 April 2005 at 01:04 AM.][This message was edited by Andy Greatrix on 09 April 2005 at 01:05 AM.]

Dave Ristrim · Post by **Dave Ristrim** » 9 Apr 2005 5:57 am

I'm sorry, but it drives me nuts when you guys refer to the A,B,C, D pedals, knees. Is it a Jeff Newman thing or am I just out of touch, or out of my mind? I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes but, if A is the first pedal in an Emmons setup, why does it work the B string? If B is the second pedal, why does it raise to an A? What is D, an Eb or an F? One of these days we should come up with a better way to describe pedals/knees. Maybe "raise 5&10, raise 3&6, raise 4&5, lower 4&8? Until then, carry on my brothers

Dave

Scott Henderson · Post by **Scott Henderson** » 9 Apr 2005 6:26 am

I like andy's analogy with the exception of one thing I would have the C or 3rd Pedal raise the the E or 4th string just a half step.(E TO F)That way I could still have the option of playing for example a G major chord on the 6 th fret with strings 4,5,&6.

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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 9 Apr 2005 8:07 am

Another thing would be to move the A and B peddles over and Scrap the C peddle. Then have the first peddle set up to raise the E's to F.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 9 Apr 2005 9:18 am

I'd think about converting one of the pedals to a knee lever. <pre> knee p1 p2 knee
D# -D/C#
G# +A
E +F/F#
B +C#
G# +A
E -D#
B +C#</pre>

db · Post by db » 15 Apr 2005 7:16 pm

This project will be a "lap guitar" with Bigsby Palm Pedals for the 'A', 'B' & "B&C"
(combined) + ONLY ONE "lever".
So, it will have individual pedals for each string pull . . .
except for the root-lower-lever, that can operate two strings.
(Only one "combined" lower function can be made.)
The big question for me is the 9th or chromatic strings.
I am partial to having the root on the lowest string . . .
But, I could give up my personal preference for a more conventional setup.

------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3
[This message was edited by db on 15 April 2005 at 08:24 PM.]

db · Post by db » 20 Apr 2005 6:07 pm

Yea,
The mechanical limitations are a brain teaser!
That's why I am asking for help here!

------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 20 Apr 2005 7:41 pm

Are you saying that each of the palm pedals can only operate one string?

db · Post by db » 22 Apr 2005 1:55 pm

Yes, One string raise - One Pedal
However, the "knee-lever" can do "two lower"
or "one lower - one raise".
I know it sound complicated . . .
But, it is the limitation of the basic design.
If you read the "Where's The Steel" article found on the website,
you will get a better understanding of a multiple palm pedal assembly.
I trying do the same thing as the PS-67F - "root raise" 7-string slide.
But, with a "root-lower" lever on an 8-string lap - a PS-68D .
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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 07 May 2005 at 05:55 PM.]

John Poston · Post by **John Poston** » 22 Apr 2005 2:42 pm

I don't really understand the palm pedal setup too well, but maybe you could do a rudimentary C6

<pre>

1 2 3 knee
E F
C D
A B
G F#
E Eb
C
A
F
</pre>

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 22 Apr 2005 4:00 pm

Yeah, John Poston's C6th idea would be the best.

db · Post by db » 26 Apr 2005 4:30 pm

John,
Ooops . . .
2-"lowers"
I can do the 3-"raises" . . .
But,I can only do 1-"lower".
Could this tuning be "moved up" a knotch?
With a 'G' on top . . .
'E' on the 2nd string . . .
loose the low 'F' . . .
What are some of the STD pedal combinations here?
I may like to work up a C6th "setup" as an option.
Thanks,
------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3
[This message was edited by db on 27 April 2005 at 07:04 PM.]

db · Post by db » 27 Apr 2005 5:27 pm

So far, I am thinking along these lines:
<pre>
A B C* D-KL
----------------------------
1 F#
2 G# +A
3 E +F#
4 B +C#
5 G# +A
6 E -D#
7 B +C#
8 E
</pre>
Sort of a "Compressed - Extended - E9th".

*The 3rd string 'C' pedal is depressed along with:
2nd 'A' & 4th 'B' pedals for the STD 'B&C' combination.

The middle "9th"(F#) has to be pulled out because of "Palm Pedal" limitations.

The 3rd string 'D' lower could be added with great engineering effort . . .
Would it work if missing? (I noticed it was missing on B0B's chart.)

The 1st string could be alternately tuned to D# or other preference.
The 8th string could be alternately tuned to D or other preference.
They could both have a "Hipshot" De-Tuner machine for a quick change option.

What do you guys think about this?
Any suggestions on the 1st or 8th string pitches?

Thanks,
------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 06 May 2005 at 06:18 PM.]

John Poston · Post by **John Poston** » 29 Apr 2005 12:38 pm

This looks pretty good. I didn't realize you could put 2 raises on one pedal.

That's a nice basic E9 you got going. You could also retune the E to F# to E to F and try that, too.

Regarding the C6 setup I had before, you could actually combine the 2 raises A->B and C->D on one pedal. You also could certainly drop the low F and stick a G on top - maybe even add a 1/2 or whole step raise on that top G since you open up a pedal with the combination. Having the major triad right there is nice for old country stuff.

Regarding the lowers, I would keep the G->F# lower, and add the low E->F to the knee lever - but you would really be missing that E->Eb quite a bit in the long run.

Your E9 setup looks as useful - maybe more depending on what you like.

Have fun!!!!

db · Post by db » 29 Apr 2005 6:14 pm

Hey John,
Thanks for the response.

The "multiple raises" are all "individual pedals" for each string . . .
to be used only when necessary for the strings that are to be picked.

Which "E" changes are you speaking of here?
The lowest "E"? . . . (I was thinking of a "D" as an alternate here).

Yes. . .
Alternate tunings for the 1st and 8th strings make it accessible for different applications.
This is the area of concern for recommendations.
As well as the 3rd string lower to D#.

BTW, I am having difficulty understanding the aspects of the C6th application.
I am an E (9th or major) guy.
------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 02 May 2005 at 07:51 PM.]

db · Post by db » 2 May 2005 7:18 pm

delete[This message was edited by db on 11 May 2005 at 06:28 PM.]

db · Post by db » 6 May 2005 5:08 pm

After viewing the last proposed copedant chart . . .
I see that the F# is already there for the equivalent 'B&C' pedal function notes.
It might be better to add another "root-lower" on the 3rd string. <pre>

I am now thinking along these lines:

A B D-KL
-----------------------
1 F#
2 G# +A
3 E -D#
4 B +C#
5 G# +A
6 E -D#
7 B +C#
8 E
</pre>Sort of a "Compressed - Extended - E9th".
Again . . .
The 1st & 8th strings could be alternately tuned to D or other preference.
They could both have a "Hipshot" De-Tuner machine for a quick change option.

What do you guys think about this revision?
Any other suggestions on the 1st or 8th string pitches?

Thanks,
------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 06 May 2005 at 06:31 PM.]

Dean Parks · Post by **Dean Parks** » 6 May 2005 6:30 pm

Dan-

After reading this thread, I'm not sure about what's possible with your mechanics. But I have a Fender 400 that I have rigged thusly, and there's a lot of music in this (especially the bottom 6 strings):
<pre>
1 2 3 4
1 F#
2 D
3 E D#
4 B C#
5 G# A F#
6 E D#
7 B C#
8 E
</pre>
When played together, 2 and 3 split accidentally to a pretty good G, so you have a major or minor strummer. I think it is very handy to have the G# drop to the F#, so you can scoop into the 'third' of the root chord.

So, pedals 1+2 are A chord over an E bass.
Pedals 3+4 are a B chord over an E bass.
Pedal 4 = major 7th chord.
Strings 4,5 with pedal 3 down, transitioning to pedal 3 up/pedal 1 down, then add string 3 = Honky Tonk Women lick.

Ideal on this guitar of mine would be knees for 3 and 4 rather than pedals.

-d-

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 7 May 2005 8:55 am

To make good use of a middle D#, you need to have a middle F# too. Just a thought.

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 7 May 2005 9:11 am

Dan, take the last setup you have posted above and move those pedals to the right one space and add the G#'s to G on the pedal next to the B's to C#....the two pedals used together give you a powerful off chord... the G#'s to G will give you a no pedal minor. I have this pull on my SD10. Works for me.
Phred

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

db · Post by db » 7 May 2005 4:22 pm

Dean . . .
I can't do a raise and lower on the same (5th) string to get the middle F#.
------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 09 May 2005 at 06:09 AM.]

db · Post by db » 7 May 2005 4:23 pm

Bobby Lee . . .
To add a "lower-middle" F#, (between 5th & 6th strings).
I would have to loose a top or bottom string.
Which one would you suggest?

Your last chart suggestion did not have a "lower-middle" F# . . .
Only the "higher" F# , that I already have on the first string here.
Have you changed your mind ? ! ?

Would you suggest that I make it a 9 string instrument with two F#s!
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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 07 May 2005 at 05:59 PM.]