Small question about E9

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 1 Aug 2005 3:13 pm

Not wanting to get into a terminology dispute due to ignorance: I'm wondering what the reasoning is behind the notation of the top three strings (F#, Eb, G#)? [From the Carter site]
Why is #2 not designated as D#, as the rest of the scale is in sharps, as befits E?

Or is it one of those call it what you will things? Just trying to simplify before I get started.
[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 01 August 2005 at 04:18 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 1 Aug 2005 3:42 pm

The second string is rightfully called D# because the tuning is based on E. There are no flats in the E scale. Anyone who calls it Eb is simply wrong.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 1 Aug 2005 4:02 pm

That's what I thought. Only logical.

I was hoping I would be getting the word from you, b0b. I agree with you that on certain details, one should be a stickler.

I'm going to have to speak to Carter about this....

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 1 Aug 2005 4:20 pm

That's absolutely correct.

I hate the D, E, F, G designations for knee levers, however and in a search for a logical shorthand for the lever that lowers 4 and 8 from E to D# I call it the 'Eb lever' because it's function is to flat (that is, lower 1/2 step) the E's. I use the same logic with the 'Bb lever', the one that lowers 5 (and sometimes 10) 1/2 step from B to A#. Anyone I've ever taught finds this much easier to understand than 'D, E, F, G'. I do call the lever that raises E to F (or E to E#, depending on the context -- e.g., as the third of the C#Maj scale) the 'F lever'.

I have found that many, if not most E9 players do call the 2nd string Eb. Most neither understand nor care about the difference.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 1 Aug 2005 5:15 pm

Technically, in the key of E it would be D# and A#. But those particular notes tend to be informally called Eb and Bb, regardless of the key. I think it comes from their association with the common horn keys of Eb and Bb, as well as the fact that in the key of C those notes are almost universally called Eb and Bb. Sometimes custom works better than correctness.

I like the letter designations of the E9 pedals and knees. For the pedals it keeps the distinction between the function of the pedals and their actual order on the pedal board, so that the Day/Emmons setup differences can be ignored. There is a certain association between the knee lever letters and their function. The logic is not consistent, but it helps remember the functions. The D lever was the first thing to be added after the C pedal, and it lowers the 2nd string D# to D. That works out nicely. The E lever lowers the Es, it is also commonly called the E-lower lever. The F lever raises the Es to F. The G lever is not a very common term. I do have a lever that raises F# to G and G#. But I think lots of people have something else for their next lever.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 1 Aug 2005 5:18 pm

See, I've already learned something, and all I had to do is ask.
I've learned that I'll be able to simplify things with 'this lever' and 'that lever', since I won't really need to communicate beyond that.
If I had to call it something, I'd call it the 'flat B' lever rather than B flat. Fact is, I believe I will. I'm probably going to make a lot more changes in my personal terminology.
I've already learned what not to ask.
But thanks. I'll keep it simple.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 1 Aug 2005 5:28 pm

Just remember:
the A pedal raises the B strings to C#,
the B pedal raises the G# strings to A,
and the C pedal does something else.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 1 Aug 2005 5:40 pm

Now THAT I can remember, b0b. Very good.

Michael Barone · Post by **Michael Barone** » 1 Aug 2005 5:52 pm

The first copedent that I read came from the book: "Sho-Bud Presents the Nashville Set-Up, vol. 1". It shows Eb for string 2. If you look at all the copedents in the forum, you find both D# and Eb for string 2.

It appears then, that there is no industry standard for copedent writing. Consistency in printed information may be, perhaps, an element in this discussion.

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Mike Barone
Sho-Bud Pro-1, Nashville 112, Assorted Guitars & Keyboards

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 1 Aug 2005 8:09 pm

Well, I just call them:
LKL, LKV, LKR, P-1, P-2, P-3, RKL, RKR. If there are (2)-LKL’s I would call them LKL1 & LKL2. Always moving (L) to (R) seated. I have KL one that sounds like ‘h _ _ _’! That’s my H-KL¡ Just kidding!

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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 1 Aug 2005 11:30 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Just remember:
the A pedal raises the B strings to C#,
the B pedal raises the G# strings to A,
and the C pedal does something else<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not every "Day"..!! methinks

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 2 Aug 2005 2:11 am

Very good, Baz.
Actually, David, the D lever does make more sense when the second string is called D#.
Likewise, those other lever designations may be memorable as you describe.

It's a good thing I've taken the time to do a lot of reading here since the fateful Red Baron. Lots of experience here.

But now I remember why I was looking for a two-pedal guitar. All I wanted was that classic E->A turnaround and it's variations. Already I've learned that I think numerically better than in keys, just as I do on piano. But that may not be unusual.

But it'll be a bigger world musically with a C pedal (I think I'll call it 'Charlie')
and 4 levers (I think I'll call them Lucy, Ricky, Fred, and Ethel). I hope I can change their raises and lowers to suit my palette, or maybe change the whole tuning (except for strings 3,4, and 5).
But I'd probably come back to the standard. [This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 02 August 2005 at 03:18 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Aug 2005 7:32 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If you look at all the copedents in the forum, you find both D# and Eb for string 2.

It appears then, that there is no industry standard for copedent writing. Consistency in printed information may be, perhaps, an element in this discussion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The copedents on my web site (b0b.com) use D# or Eb depending on what the player gave me. What you are seeing is not "industry standard" but rather "player preference".

Also note that b0b.com isn't really a part of the Forum. I'd hate to imagine that pages from my personal web site would be a benchmark for an "industry standard".

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 2 Aug 2005 8:52 am

You say tomayto, I say tomahto. You say anal, I say banal. In the long run, if you successfully communicate the necessary information, what's the difference?

I don't mind being musically incorrect (D# vs Eb) as long as the purchaser can tune the guitar.

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 2 Aug 2005 8:54 am

You say tomayto, I say tomahto. You say anal, I say banal. In the long run, if you successfully communicate the necessary information, what's the difference?

I don't mind being musically incorrect (D# vs Eb) as long as the customer can end up tuning the guitar.

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 2 Aug 2005 9:14 am

Charlie, I'll send you some stuff to confuse you further. Terry Bethel posted tab in the Ozark Steel Guitar Assn. magazine. Instead of using letters for pedal designations, he used the string number. It is something like this: 3+ means use the pedal that raises the 3rd string. No matter what your copedant, you could use this tab.
I'll email the details which I have on file.
I don't normally use tab. If I can hear the song played, I can usually play it,in my own way.
Here is another way the "E/Eb" terminology can give you nightmares...... A friend and I were asked to sit in at a club where a band was playing. We told them the name of the song we would play and said "It's in Eb". The rythmn guitar player looked at me a while, then said "I'll just play along in E, that's close enough".
[This message was edited by John Daugherty on 02 August 2005 at 12:38 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 2 Aug 2005 11:43 am

I see now.
The chord finder chart linked from Ricky's (?) site shows both terms. So it goes.

I gotta go with Bob; you got an E, it's an E tuning, you got a D, so it's D#.
Flats are great for pianos. On a bass, they suck--I meant, such a problem.

John! Please no more! Let me figger the dang thang out for a while after I get it, then I'll know what to ask.

thank you all for your considered observations.[This message was edited by Charlie McDonald on 02 August 2005 at 12:45 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Aug 2005 12:00 pm

John fabian wrote:

You say tomayto, I say tomahto. You say anal, I say banal. In the long run, if you successfully communicate the necessary information, what's the difference?

If you call it an Eb, you aren't communicating the necessary information. That's the point. This is a musical instrument tuned to a musical scale. Calling the D# an Eb obscures that fact and contributes to musical ignorance that is too widespread in this community, in my opinion.

Eb is not a note of the E major scale.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)

Michael Barone · Post by **Michael Barone** » 2 Aug 2005 5:31 pm

You're right, b0b. My choice of the term "industry standard" is not relevant to the “player preference”, including the differences in how these preferences are expressed. I forgot at the time that b0b.com is an information source based on contributions, like the forum, but separate from it.

There are many types of learning/thinking methods which may account for the different expression of preferences. For example, I think Eb is easier for those utilizing spatial thinking; D# is easier for those who utilize numerical thinking. We can all do both, but at different skill levels. Therefore, subconsciously I think we individually adapt to what is easiest to grasp, thus the rooted differences, with some not caring about theoretical correctness.

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Mike Barone
Sho-Bud Pro-1, Nashville 112, Assorted Guitars & Keyboards

Charles Turpin · Post by **Charles Turpin** » 2 Aug 2005 7:01 pm

I think that it isn't the idea that the second string is called Eb instead of D# isn't a note thing. I believe it is cause say you where going to use to second string as a root note instead of a major seventh note.Then the note in a root chord would make the scale easier to count than the D# key. Like i use to play in a band that played almost everything in the key of A#.. Is there realy such a key with this signature. A#,D#,G# hehehe is there a key as this.

I don't know

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David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 2 Aug 2005 7:03 pm

If I'm reading music (on piano or sax, not steel), I'd expect to only see sharps in a sharp key like E. Seeing a flat would be totally confusing. But in reading and talking copedants I've gotten used to seeing them all mixed up and it doesn't bother me.

But now on the C6 neck, there are no sharps or flats in the key of C. So how are the accidentals referred to? I think I tend to think in flats, because the flatted 3rd, 5th and 7th are so important. But if you pointed to the note between C and D, I might call that C#.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 3 Aug 2005 1:08 am

I know what you mean, David. I started out playing piano with a sax player, and I got to play in Eb, Bb, and F a lot, so I see flats all over a keyboard. But pointing to that note between C and D, I see a sharp.

The pedal steel seems to be an unusual case, and its terminology may arise from the various raises and lowers. Still, industry standard is not as useful to me as a musical standard.
I sent Kay Das a chart of a song I wrote on the keyboard, and I had to convert half the chords to their counterpart in sharps--the keyboard doesn't know what key I'm in, it uses its own logic to assign chord names.
Such a chart, uncorrected, would not be useful in communicating the song to a player.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 3 Aug 2005 5:52 am

Jazz players almost always refer to accidentals in the key of C as flats. May be because of all the Bb and Eb instruments.

One exception might be an augmented 5th -- G# instead of Ab because of the inherent logic (i.e., raising the 5th).

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps