Do you avoid open fifths, fourths in "diads?"

Alan Shank · Post by **Alan Shank** » 10 Jul 2005 3:31 pm

When you're playing scale passages in two-part harmony, do you avoid playing fifths and fourths? Personally, I don't like the "empty" sound of open fifths and fourths. Let me illustrate what I mean with an example:

Key of G, tonic harmony, you're playing a scale passage on string 3, harmonizing the melody below on string 5.
<pre>
G A B C D
B C D E ?
</pre>
The GB and BD are member of the G major tonic triad, and the AC and CE are passing tones. When the melody goes to a D note, the next note in the pattern for the harmony part would be F#, but that would clash with the G major, unless you actually wanted a major 7th effect. To conform to the harmony and keep the open harmony, you'd play G on the bottom string, but then you'd have an open fifth.

What I tend to do is switch to a close harmony, playing a B on the 4th string under the D on the 3rd string. I learn my scales in both sixths and thirds and switch according to the prevailing harmony and which chord member is in the melody.

For example, if the root is in the top voice, I harmonize it a sixth below. If the third is in the top voice, I can use either a third below (the root) or a sixth below (the fifth), and if the fifth is the top voice, I use the third below (third of the chord).

With dominant chords, more possibilities open up, because the 5th is now surrounded by adjacent-third chord tones, so is the 7th if you want to use the 9th.

The pairs I use vary according to the prevailing harmony. So, if I'm playing in the key of G in tonic harmony, I will harmonize a G melody note with a B below, but if the current chord is the sub-dominant, C, I will harmonize it with an E, a third below, rather than with B (C maj 7 effect) or C (open fifth).

Of course, there are time when you want the sound of an open fifth. I just wondered whether other players avoid them.

In his "Up from the Top, AB pedals" book, Jeff Newman shows an "Integrated Scale" that include the 12th fret of both the 4th and 5th strings. This is a perfect 4th, B below E. He calls this "...an odd one. It sounds a bit funny to some when they hear it. It is a great sound when played in context, along with rhythm." Well, I'm one of the ones to whom is sounds "a bit funny." I changed that to 11AF, a C under the E.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 10 Jul 2005 6:35 pm

If it's against a G chord, I'd usually skip the F# and go to G. I don't find anything wrong with playing an open 5th interval. Actually, I use them a lot.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 10 Jul 2005 8:15 pm

I believe you should learn as many harmonies as possible for each musical setting. Just about anything can work if you know how to use it. I would never limit myself to some rule. HOWEVER, I would learn all the rules in order to understand the options I have. With regards to the particulars of your post, IMO fifths harmony is a basic harmony and should never be eliminated from your toolkit. And the F# is always a viable option to play againt a G chord if you know how to use it. Don't restrict your harmonic options or your playing may end up sounding harmonically dull!

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Jeff's Jazz

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 11 Jul 2005 1:03 am

I don't avoid any intervals. It all depends on the context.
Listen to all those glorious 2nds Emmons sneaks in with his harmonized 3rds on something like Blue Jade from the Black album.

Its a good excersize to learn how to play pure diatonic intervals in as many ways as you can on the neck. It will help you get out of the corn pedal rut. You know, try to play each note with musical intention rather than the when I get to here I squash down this pedal approach.

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Bob
My Website

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 11 Jul 2005 2:07 am

Alan,

you might also try starting your harmonized scale using "horn" fifths (a misnomer, but a often used lable) for the following progrssion of diads:

G A B
B D G

This flips you immediately from sixths into thirds,

G A B C D
B D G A B

but it might smooth over the effect against a tonic chord.

Dan

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Dan Beller-McKenna
Durham, NH
Dekley S-10, Telecaster, Guild D-35, tin can

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 12 Jul 2005 1:08 pm

I agree with Alan: open fifths and fourths sound too "eastern" in some cases --especially in country music and swing.

You run into this a lot singing harmony also. If the song is in C, and the melody goes to a G over a C chord, and you're singing a harmony a third above, do you sing a B note? You'll get funny looks from the band if you do --unless they happen to be playing a Cmaj7 there. If they're not (and they probably aren't) you're kind of forced into singing a C note, which means you're no longer singing a harmony a third above but have jumped to a fourth above.

It works, but I always think it sounds a bit funny --almost like a cop-out somehow.

So Alan I see exactly what you are talking about. Bothers me too.

-GV

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The Idaho Falls

Leon Grizzard · Post by **Leon Grizzard** » 12 Jul 2005 1:18 pm

I think that a lot of times you have to use the fifth or fourth, especially at the end of phrases or lines, or on lingering notes, if you want to match the triad of the moment and it sounds fine, and appropriate. A series of parallel fourths or fifths is what sounds funny, or modal.[This message was edited by Leon Grizzard on 12 July 2005 at 03:30 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Jul 2005 5:13 pm

Do you avoid open fifths...

Nope, just empty ones!

Seriously, no. In my own simple mind, the 3rd and 5th are the most important and significant notes in a major chord. In fact, next time you break a 4th string in the middle of a song on the E9th, you might agree!