Thumb Thumb vs Thumb Finger

Gary Lee Gimble · Post by **Gary Lee Gimble** » 19 May 2005 4:50 am

My good friend Chuck Campbell (Northern Va. Chuck) had solicited some speed licks from me and made a video of this event. He noticed I used my thumb for two consecutive notes instead of using my thumb followed by a finger. He wanted to know the advantages and disadvantages through this technique of double thumbing. I have my own justifications, one of which is a reference to a Joe Pass video where you can plainly see Joe using his thumb for 2 + fast notes. But he is Joe Pass, I'm just a Gimble!

Anyway, your thoughts are now being accepted.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 19 May 2005 7:21 am

In a post towards the bottom of the thread below, Dave Mudgett listed some common banjo rolls. It got me thinking for the first time about how you could use the roll patterns and pattern fragments to count and define the placement of the notes in a measure. For example if you play T-I-M T-I-M T-I over and over, you will always be playing 8 to the bar. Maybe this is obvious, I had just never though about it that way before. In this context, I could definitely see why you might want to repeat two thumb strokes to "set up" for a following pattern or roll that gets you mentally back on count - this is probably highly individualized. http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/009987.html

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 19 May 2005 7:36 am

Gary Lee,
Buddy does that a lot, esp on C6
Example: http://www.buddyemmons.com/exercise_1.htm

It just sounds different. I'm sure it's easier to play TF than TT, but each sounds different. The double thumb stroke puts more emphasis on those two notes, whereas thumb/finger tends to make the first note slightly louder or stronger. There are reasons to use each (but then YOU KNEW THAT).

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Gary Lee Gimble · Post by **Gary Lee Gimble** » 19 May 2005 8:16 am

David M, I skimmed at Dudgett's post you have made reference to. I noticed his Foggy Mt. Breakdown roll utilizes his index finger to start off the lick. I've used my thumb since grade 1 simply because there is definition, power and some dynamics. I don't feel the index finger would produce the same effect and my last name isn't Scruggs either. I also agree to what Larry makes mention to, "slightly louder or stronger."

John Poston · Post by **John Poston** » 19 May 2005 8:54 am

I like to do the foggy mtn like this
IM-TM-TIMT
It gives a nice push on the 3rd note.

Same as in steel - thumb is good for a little extra if you can execute it at the speed you need to get the notes in.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 19 May 2005 10:22 am

Actually, John P. is closest to Earl. I've seen the Foggy Mtn Breakdown lick notated IM-IM-TIMT or IH-IM-TIMT and other ways also, but Earl notates the FMB lick like this in his book:

I-H-T-(MH)-T-I-M-T

where H denotes hammer-on, and (MH) is a double stop, string1/open and string2/fret3.

I showed IM-IM-TIMT because I use it a lot on steel, and that was the issue on this thread. On FMB on banjo, each approach has challenges. Using IM-IM-TIMT or IH-IM-TIMT, the challenge is getting the 3rd note strong enough. Using IM-TM-TIMT, the challenge is moving the thumb back and forth. They both can be done. I also see no problem with TM-TM-TIMT either. I might like one or another of these approaches on something depending on my mood, or what I want it to sound like.

I agree that the thumb is naturally stronger than M or I (or R for steel), but I think it makes sense to try to get all three (four) fingers as equal as possible, so they're available for a strong hit if needed. So I try to mix up the way I do things to force that as much as I can.

Back to the thread, I think double-thumbing has it's place. I find it useful in blues and rock playing especially, and use it get a syncopated feel, sometimes scraping the strings to activate some harmonics or to get a percussive effect. Like anything else, it has pros and cons - the major con being that you need to re-cock the thumb for the second hit. That intrinsically limits the speed to how fast you can do that, as opposed to hitting with different fingers, which can be done, in principle, as fast as you want.[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 19 May 2005 at 11:23 AM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 19 May 2005 10:51 am

it has pros and cons - the major con being that you need to re-cock the thumb for the second hit. That intrinsically limits the speed to how fast you can do that, as opposed to hitting with different fingers, which can be done, in principle, as fast as you want.

I'm not so sure that is true. Gary Carpenter plays as fast as anybody and doubles or triples up with his thumb all the time. In concept it seems like it doesn't work but for the guys that it works for it works great. Mike Auldridge was showing me some real fast stuff once and he was double picking with his thumb also.

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Bob
intonation help

Gary Lee Gimble · Post by **Gary Lee Gimble** » 19 May 2005 11:16 am

"Mike Auldridge was showing me some real fast stuff"

Bob, was that dobro or steel?

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 19 May 2005 11:24 am

Being a fan of Toy Caldwells guitar (and steel) playing (he uses a bare thumb at high speed for all his [lead] guitar playing), I have practiced using my thumb in a forward>backward motion to hit the string twice quickly (forward>forward is fine too).
I sometimes practice just building speed and consistancy with the forward/back thumb striking a given string, and often alternate it with a ring or index finger played note.
Fun Stuff!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 19 May 2005 4:41 pm

I think fast thumb moves were more popular when everyone was palm-blocking. It's still a useful technique, and it gives a different sound, but it's not as popular as it once was. I still do it, usually only on fast intervals, because I've found that pick blocking and using TM or TI for single note lines is just plain faster.

Also, Gary, I would imagine that your many years as a banjo player, and your many years under BC's tutelage, has influenced the techniques you use now.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 19 May 2005 5:58 pm

Bob, you're no doubt correct, this points out the fallacy of any over-generalization. I meant "I", not "you". I've seen guys do fast picking with a thumbpick too. I think most of this was alternating up/down thumbpicking. Whatever works. Just seems like a different planet for me, who exclusively flatpicked guitar until about ten years ago. I just can't get used to the up/down motion with a thumbpick. It does seem like there would be a tighter speed limit on extended down-down picking to me, though. Yes, for a flurry of notes, it makes sense, but for extended fast legato passages, it sounds kind of tough. I suppose if one practiced enough, it could work.

My favorite example of thumb-only is Wes Montgomery. Never seemed to limit him in any way that mattered. But I never thought of Wes as a 'speed picker', say in the sense of somebody like Pat Martino or Al DiMeola.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 19 May 2005 8:09 pm

Well GLG, my friend, I know where you learned it.

He used to tell me that my thumb speed was the hardest to obtain. I've always found it to be true.

BC used to watch me stumble with it all the time with that "kindly worried look".

Bud's Therapy, and "Earl's Breakdown on that "double thumbing" part" were the two that had it highlighted. I'm sure you remember them.

I paid so little for so much with that guy.

EJL