Tight Tuners

Godfrey Arthur · Post by **Godfrey Arthur** » 26 Jun 2017 6:13 am

Are tuning machines normally tight or is this a sign of a worn out machine on a psg?

Remember your first cheap guitar, the tuners needed a visegrip to get them moving sort of issue..

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 26 Jun 2017 9:47 am

I think you're using too much oil.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 26 Jun 2017 10:03 am

Some tuners can be loosened up but backing off the screw that holds the tuner button on. I once bought a brand new Albert Lee at GC. The doctor who bought it couldn't keep it in tune and brought it back the same day he picked it up. I got an amazing deal on it. Took it home, got out my tiny screwdriver and tightened the button screws. Perfecto!

Godfrey Arthur · Post by **Godfrey Arthur** » 26 Jun 2017 11:11 am

Dan Beller-McKenna wrote:I think you're using too much oil.

Hehe, good one Dan...reverse psychological euphemism...

A little dab'll do ya...

John Billings wrote:got out my tiny screwdriver and tightened the button screws. Perfecto!

Duh now why didn't I think of that...thanks John..

After the G string broke some days ago and hooked my thumb like a fingerling trout, I've started calling the guitar, "Christine.." $:\$

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 26 Jun 2017 2:32 pm

Chronic problem with the older Sperzel Tuners. It has been reported that the lube that was used in the manufacturing process would harden over time making the units very difficult to turn.

Godfrey Arthur · Post by **Godfrey Arthur** » 26 Jun 2017 3:20 pm

David Nugent wrote:Chronic problem with the older Sperzel Tuners. It has been reported that the lube that was used in the manufacturing process would harden over time making the units very difficult to turn.

David, I had thought that as well but loosening the key head screws and adding a needle oiler bead of oil under the key seemed to ease up the hard turns. If not, is there a modern tuner replacement for an old Shobud 10? I like the vintage appeal but good tuners are essential if one expects performance.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 26 Jun 2017 4:37 pm

I have the same issue on a couple of my Super Pro Sperzels. I seem to recall hearing that Sperzel (who is still in business) would refurb them, or am I making that up? Of course, that would require having at least one neck of the guitar off-line for a while. They also seem to build custom tuners, so that could be an option

I also believe I have seen Super Pros with Grovers. Obviously that would not be a drop in replacement; probably major surgery.

When I get back home on Wed. I'll try the drop of oil fix. I do recall that working on an old Dekley I had (forget what the tuners were).

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 26 Jun 2017 5:01 pm

Call Bob. He's always been very responsive to me.

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 27 Jun 2017 4:22 am

Dan is correct. Unfortunately, the locking pins in the Grover tuners are fixed and do not align with the holes in a key head that has been drilled for Sperzel tuners. On the other hand; converting from Grover units to Sperzel is a somewhat simpler operation as the pins are removable in the Sperzels. I installed a set of locking Sperzel tuners in my Grover equipped Emmons SKH and experienced no problem with the tuners shifting position, I simply check them all when changing strings and tighten as necessary.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 27 Jun 2017 3:22 pm

Call Bob! He's never failed to talk to me.

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 27 Jun 2017 4:17 pm

Here's an earlier post concerning these machines. There are a couple tips from Jack Stoner and others concerning maintenance on them including cleaning and re-lubing. Maybe some help there.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... ht=sperzel

FWIW, I never did get back to it on my Zum since they weren't too bad and I sold it shortly after.

Godfrey Arthur · Post by **Godfrey Arthur** » 28 Jun 2017 7:31 am

John, I sent an email to Sperzel a day or so ago, am still waiting for a reply. And yesterday for some reason I couldn't access the forum at all so now it's back.

Jerry, thanks for the good link. I had tried to search the archives before posting this thread but didn't get "Rough Sperzels" in my crystal ball.

Dan, hopefully Sperzel will have an easy fix that doesn't involve dismantling the guitar and shipping off 10 tuners to conus.

David, Grover has a set for 10 string where Sperzel does not, at least not advertised on their site, but glad you guys chimed on the pin and mounting issues.

I would rather have the original tuners back to working condition if possible. Sperzel makes good tuners and was one of those that seemed to come out of nowhere vs the other companies that have been around for a long while.

Isn't there a way to lift the cap off the backs of these to be able to re-lube the gears?

Also I'm wondering if pedal steel is just such a different animal altogether and if a special design is needed for tuning machines. These old guitars were made to work with the available tuners of the day as that was all there was.

Perhaps a planetary gear system or a compound planetary would handle the torque better besides worm gears, as in the tuners on a banjo, albeit wishing for the moon for a workable adaptable fine gear ratio retro design and the R&D to have at it.

The early birds got the worm...

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 28 Jun 2017 10:54 am

Sperzel will provide a set for pedal steel upon request. Important item to remember when ordering is to specify shorter shafts for the tuners on strings 5&6 and longer bushings overall to compensate for the added thickness of the key head...FYI: Installed locking Sperzels on my SD-10 SKH Emmons(my go to gig guitar)and am well pleased. They seem to hold tune very well and when changing strings, having the ability to lock the string into place on the tuner makes the operation a bit simpler.

Godfrey Arthur · Post by **Godfrey Arthur** » 28 Jun 2017 12:39 pm

John Billings wrote:Call Bob! He's never failed to talk to me.

Got a reply from Ron at Sperzel. He suggested taking the button off backing out the worm gear a tad, by pushing and turning, wipe off as much as possible. Mix some trumpet valve oil with white grease, put some of that on the worm gear. Reassemble.

Or, he also said, send them the tuners...

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 1 Jul 2017 4:19 am

I am assuming that the op is referring to Sperzel tuners from the late 70's into the 80's, used on Pedal Steel guitars.

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 1 Jul 2017 4:32 am

Tony, I am assuming from the end of your post that the ones that came completely apart were easy to put back together with full functionality. When you say completely apart, do you mean that the shaft screwed entirely out of the gearbox? I have encountered some '60s Grovers on which the gearbox would come apart, and that was the end of them.

Anyone have a ballpark idea of what twenty custom made Sperzels would set one back? David, sounds like you went that route. no?

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 1 Jul 2017 4:47 am

Okay, this seems to answer my question to Tony above and provides some guidance for those of us who might be inclined to relube our Sperzels (Hmmm. That sounds dirty.)

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 1 Jul 2017 5:30 am

Dan, yes , the gear just slid out and then slid back in. I wish they all did that !

The ones that did not come apart allow about 1/16 to 1/8th opening at the bottom so it is possible to loosen up the caked lube and slowly get some to drop out.

Here you can see the dried up lube.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 1 Jul 2017 5:35 am

These tuners were used on late model Sho Buds as well

Godfrey Arthur · Post by **Godfrey Arthur** » 1 Jul 2017 7:43 am

Tony Prior wrote:I am assuming that the op is referring to Sperzel tuners from the late 70's into the 80's, used on Pedal Steel guitars.

<snip>

Mine are better now, but not like new.

Yes Tony, to the 1st statement.

2nd statement:

Willing to bet the metal has ground down over the years and is not its original thicknesses.

Wonder if along with buttons and delrin washers, you can just purchase the gears and posts to reuse the tuner bodies?

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 1 Jul 2017 8:10 am

Great info Tony. I'm definitely going to address this when I have some time between gigs and travel this month.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 2 Jul 2017 12:33 am

The issue is we can't take them completely apart . I was lucky, a few did come apart. I'm thinking there is not much wear if any at all, it's not like we are turning these things 24/7 for 30 years . If there was wear, they would turn easier and would be sloppy loose.

It's just the hard lube that we have to deal with.

Godfrey Arthur · Post by **Godfrey Arthur** » 2 Jul 2017 4:07 am

Tony Prior wrote:The issue is we can't take them completely apart . I was lucky, a few did come part but they were not supposed to. I'm thinking there is not much wear if any at all, it's not like we are turning these things 24/7 for 30 years . If there was wear, they would turn easier and would be sloppy loose.

It's just the hard lube that we have to deal with.

I see. It is what it is on these..

From your photo the worm part is made of the same metal the shaft is. Wouldn't metal made for gearing purposes and properly machined function better?

Schaller is making sealed tuners that don't use grease hence the materials and the cut of the gears does the work to prevent binding and a proper lash.

Schaller grease-less Da Vinci tuners.

A polycarbonate UV resistant "window" shows the gears, reducing weight. No lubricant needed on these.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 2 Jul 2017 5:09 am

It took me the whole page to finally get the little tuners in the can. Plenty of grease there. I feel like Adrian Monk sometimes.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 2 Jul 2017 7:26 am

I'm not in the tuner key business, I just use them to tune guitar strings !

I cant say one way or the other how they should be made, but we are talking about tuner keys made probably 35 or 40 years ago and the only issue that we know of is they used crummy lube which hardened !