Who All made Push Pulls ???

Kevin Raymer · Post by **Kevin Raymer** » 7 Apr 2005 1:42 pm

I just read a posting for a 1969 PP for sale in the "for sale" forum. Some poor schmuck indicated that the seller should have listed the brand. Well... It was pretty obvious it was an Emmons for sale, but none the less it made me think, so I came here to ask.

Who else in the world of Steel Guitar manufacturers has made PP changers ??

Anybody but Emmons every successfull at it ??

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 7 Apr 2005 2:49 pm

I think some old Marlen guitars were P/P,, Emmons of course, The Promat that Demir has and loves,and I could be wrong but didn't Zum or Mullen offer a P/P changer on a limited basis??? or at one time had such an option??..
I might be crazy but I was almost positive one of the well known "modern" builders had such a beast available as a special order...bob

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 7 Apr 2005 4:18 pm

I love Yugos
bobbe[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 07 April 2005 at 05:21 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 12 April 2005 at 05:09 PM.]

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 7 Apr 2005 6:19 pm

Thanks Bobbe for the info seeing as how I am involved in that thread. The guitar in question you know about.

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1985 Emmons push-pull,Evans SE200,Hilton pedal, Jag Wire Strings

Bobby Bowman · Post by **Bobby Bowman** » 7 Apr 2005 6:22 pm

Kevin and Bobbe,
Yes, I did build and sell a true push pull guitar at one time. It was simply called the "B" guitar. I had a partner (Al Winters) who was a machinest and Al came down with some very serious medical and physical problems. So after only 17 guitars we decided to drop out of the guitar making business. I played my prototype for years. It was affectionally called "Bugger Red" and was one fine sounding and playing guitar.
Since then, Mr.Earl Fisher and myself have teamed up and designed a keyless double changer push pull that is a dream to play. However, at this time we have not made a full committment produce this guitar on a "commerical basis".
I first saw a double changer push pull that was made by BMI and Mr. Fisher and I developed the idea even further and have made it into a really good guitar.
BB
www.bobbybowman.com

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!
http://www.bobbybowman.com

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 7 Apr 2005 11:05 pm

Bobbe .. I stand corrected... bob

Roger Edgington · Post by **Roger Edgington** » 8 Apr 2005 6:01 am

I bought a car once and they told me it was a "steal". It turned out to be a push-pull for sure. Maybe I should have got a black one.

Jay Jessup · Post by **Jay Jessup** » 8 Apr 2005 8:05 am

I'd be real surprised if Bruce Z ever sold a push-pull however his student models guitars work like the pull-release that Bobbe described above.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 8 Apr 2005 8:16 am

On the old Marlens and on the Sho-Bud Maverick, you pull the changer finger to raise a string and push the finger (against the tension of a spring) to lower a string. Now, I know it's more primitive than the fancy Emmons changer, but I have always called it "push-pull" anyway. Bobbe says I'm wrong.

One thing I'm not wrong about though: this topic belongs in the "Pedal Steel" section of the Forum. I'm moving it right now!

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 8 Apr 2005 8:35 am

For those of us who's parents hadn't even graduated high school in 1969, this is all very educational. Thanks for the discussion.

Kevin Raymer · Post by **Kevin Raymer** » 8 Apr 2005 9:08 am

My Bad Bobby, I thought I was in Pedal Steel when I posted that..

Guess I got a little "Click" happy..

Thanks for moving it.

AND !!!!

Thanks for all the great input guys. Very educational for those of us who were just 4 or 5 in 1969..

Regards,

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JK Raymer, Esquire
Fesseden SD-10
Marrs S-10
ShoBud Pro III

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 8 Apr 2005 9:46 am

For those of us who's parents hadn't even graduated high school in 1969,

Thanks for the reality check.....

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 9 Apr 2005 5:25 pm

Bobbe [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 09 April 2005 at 06:32 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 12 April 2005 at 05:10 PM.]

johnnyb · Post by **johnnyb** » 11 Apr 2005 4:41 pm

jb[This message was edited by johnnyb on 12 April 2005 at 07:20 PM.]

Dan Burnham · Post by **Dan Burnham** » 11 Apr 2005 5:31 pm

Not to claim to be a "Know It All" But here is the answer that will resolve this discussion.

Push = When the salesman is trying to sale you your 5th steel guitar

Pull = Is your wife dragging you out of the store.

Bobbe, have you ever seen this kind of push pull, ha! ha!

Just thought a little frosting of humor would resolve the issue.

[This message was edited by Dan Burnham on 11 April 2005 at 06:32 PM.][This message was edited by Dan Burnham on 11 April 2005 at 06:32 PM.]

johnnyb · Post by **johnnyb** » 11 Apr 2005 10:20 pm

jb[This message was edited by johnnyb on 12 April 2005 at 07:21 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 12 Apr 2005 7:10 am

Huh? [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 12 April 2005 at 05:12 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Apr 2005 7:39 am

I had one of those Marlens for a while and I don't remember any fingers being "center held" as you describe it, Bobbe. On strings that were lowered, the finger was pulled with a spring to stop against the body of the guitar.

The guitar (a Speedy West model) had been through several owners including Ricky Davis so I'm not sure how they were set up at the factory initially. It had excellent tone and sustain as the feedback loop was complete for all strings on both necks. There were no "dangling fingers".

Maybe it wasn't a push-pull by your definition or maybe it was. All I know is that it had the smoothest, best pedal action of any pedal steel I've ever played and it had a great classic country tone. Definitely not "a Yugo".

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 12 Apr 2005 12:24 pm

I have an old British pull-release pedal steel with the fingers hanging in the central position, some in contact with the endplate tuning screws, some not.
It isn't as pretty as a ZB or ShoBud, in fact it isn't pretty at all.
What is pretty is the tone. Better than the PP Emmons I occasionally play, better than the ZB that I occasionally play, it has the authentic classic pedal steel tone.
There may be more to PSG tone than the fingers being in contact with the body...
R B

johnnyb · Post by **johnnyb** » 12 Apr 2005 3:07 pm

jb[This message was edited by johnnyb on 12 April 2005 at 07:21 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 12 Apr 2005 3:52 pm

I think everyone should have the freedom to name something anything they wish. I call my Pontiac GTO :"Billy Goat", but it isn't really a billy goat. I call my dog "spot" but he has no spots, North Carolina is called the "Tarheel" state, but I never saw anyone there with tar on their heels, Tennessee is called the the state of the Minute Men,,,, and I have been accused of this in the past, however, call your guitar anything you wish, I'll do the same.

Bobbe [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 12 April 2005 at 04:55 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 12 April 2005 at 05:59 PM.]

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 12 Apr 2005 4:55 pm

Whoa, now, Bobbe!! Don't be offended, please. Your expertise is legendary, and very highly valued here on the forum. I, for one, would feel a great loss if you ever "gave up" trying to educate us "young pups" on the historical fine points of our pedal steel heritage. Please don't let us discourage you!

Some of us here do have deeply held opinions...right or wrong...but still we can learn a new/old bit of info every once in a while. I like hearing differing opinions because it stirs up my brain cells and makes me think.

That said, there are truths and then there are half truths. My poor overtaxed brain is with you on this one, Bobbe. IMHO, claiming a push-pull and a pull-release are the same thing just because that's how I've always refered to them, is simply incorrect. That would, at best, be confusing to a newbie, and tends to water down the factual details regarding their distinctive differences.

We should be true to our heritage and accurately identify the milestones and inventions our predecessors brought us. I consider you, Bobbe, to be one of the guardians of these facts and details...among a few others. I greatly appreciate your participation in discussions here on the forum. Don't ever think otherwise.

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Every day is a Great day,
Mike
(aka Sideman)

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 12 Apr 2005 5:08 pm

Mike, thank you, I just don't wish to enfringe on anyones freedom to call what they have anything they wish to call it.
It's just that we in the world of steel guitar over the last many years have developed a language to communicate with and I can't see any reason to change it now as most older builders, players, and sales folks use it fluently in the trade.
I personally never liked the term "Push -Pull", and neither did Ron Lashley, he prefered the term, "Emmons Original". He once told me that the P-P term sounded derogatory to him.
Thank you again Mike,
Your buddy,

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 12 Apr 2005 6:08 pm

But, along those same lines, defined language is the cornerstone of communication. If we fudge around with "definitions" then the foundations of that communication become uncertain. The definitions that apply to our language are developed over many decades, if not centuries, and enable us to have a common understanding of the meaning of someone else's words. Without that common understanding, we slide down that very slippery slope of cultural disintegration. I prefer to maintain the definitions that have been passed down to me from my forbearers, unaltered.

Maybe what we have here is more of a regional issue...you say potato and I say spud?!?!...but the thing still tastes just as good with a juicy steak! What do I know!?!?! I play a pedal steel guitar, for God's sake!!!

(the above opinion was brought to you by an old steeler...your mileage may vary wildly...no offense was intended and none will be taken by dissenting opinions) lol

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 12 Apr 2005 6:17 pm

Mike, what a great writer you are, actually I have nothing to gain and everything to lose in these forum discussions, so I feel I should refrain from being so involved here and save this type of comunication for my "News Letters" and "Tips" emails.
bobbe