Neck Screws - How Much Torque?

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 16 Mar 2005 12:48 pm

I've read and heard stories about changing the tone and/or sustain of a guitar by adjusting the torque of the screws used to fasten the neck(s) to the body. Are these stories fact or merely urban legend? Is this something we should send to Myth Busters?

Lee, from South Texas

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 19 Mar 2005 4:44 pm

Here are some previous discussions.

Click Here

And Here

Any other testimonials out there?

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 19 Mar 2005 4:47 pm

I just had another thought. Instead of listening to your guitar after each torque change (and trying to remember what it sounded like), couldn't you just completely loosen the screws that attach the neck to the body and then have someone apply pressure to the neck with their hands, as you play the guitar? Perhaps quicker results? Perhaps no change?

Lee

Larry Strawn · Post by **Larry Strawn** » 19 Mar 2005 5:14 pm

"DUMMIE" Me!!!
I've been fighting my Emmons S/D-10 for 2 weeks now. Took it down for cleaning, and casual maintainance. Of course I tightened every thing up "real" GOOD!! It hasn't sounded right since, I've been blaming the strings I put on it, same strings I've used it's intire life [Ron Lashleys]..
I quess ya'll know what I'll be doing tommorrow!
Great post guys,, Thanx.
Larry

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Emmons S/D-10, 3/4, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

Buddy Emmons · Post by **Buddy Emmons** » 20 Mar 2005 4:45 am

Tightening the neck bolts on an old guitar of mine made a difference in the resonance and loosening them to where they previously were, brought the original sound back. This took place around 1975 on a 1968 Emmons push/pull that had a lot of miles on it. My reason for not recommending it everybody was that I didn’t want someone to try it on a new guitar and perhaps lose their sound and never get it back. It takes an ear that can detect the subtle changes in sound while adjusting the tension and isn’t for everybody, but it does work.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 20 Mar 2005 8:04 am

Thanks Buddy. Now that is good information to know.....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Frank McBride · Post by **Frank McBride** » 20 Mar 2005 10:39 am

Try this it worked for me. Set your guitar up. sit behind your guitar on the floor. left hand on left legg. screwdriver in right hand. strum the string's. touque screw's untill you get the max. vibration through your left hand,you now have max. sustain.

Larry Strawn · Post by **Larry Strawn** » 20 Mar 2005 10:49 am

Just got thru re-torquing neck screws. Couldn't tell any difference! My ear might not be good enough to detect it! Changed strings again,,Must have been a bad set of strings..Sounds goood again!!

Larry

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Emmons S/D-10, 3/4, Sessions 400 Ltd. Home Grown E/F Rack
"ROCKIN COUNTRY"

[This message was edited by Larry Strawn on 20 March 2005 at 11:07 AM.]

Leon Grizzard · Post by **Leon Grizzard** » 20 Mar 2005 11:41 am

It's like adjusting valves on a car - tighten until you hear a crack, then back off a quarter turn.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 20 Mar 2005 12:35 pm

Frank - Your suggestion reminds me of comments others have made, regarding vibrations felt in the legs of guitars. Their claim is, if you feel the vibrations in the legs of the guitar, it was poorly designed and all the "tone" or "timbre" or whatever you want to call it is being delivered through the legs and down to the floor.

Fact? Myth? Opinion?

Who knows?

Lee

Frank McBride · Post by **Frank McBride** » 20 Mar 2005 11:31 pm

Well my poorly designed SHO BUD Pro. II custom, sound's better than my emmons or my mullen's. I Will have to try somthing els with the sho bud. Thanks

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 21 Mar 2005 4:46 am

Ultimate Sustain: Adjust neck screws until the guitar and legs vibrate. Pluck the 10th string on C6th neck and stand back. If the guitar starts moving around the room on a hardwood floor you've reached the max.

DD

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 22 Mar 2005 7:08 am

I am trying to improve my sustain and harmonics on my 1983 P/P. I tightened the Allen screws that are on the underside of the bridge, close to the right endplate. Then I tighted the center screws on the left endplates and the screws for the nuts. Last, I tightened the screws for the necks. You can probably guess where my tone and sustain went.

After reading this thread and others I found, I loosened the screws on the necks and things are sounding a little better.

Does anybody know for a certainty which screws should be really tight and which should be looser? This is assuming that the bridge is correctly adjusted for maximum finger travel and the pedal stops hit just a fraction of movement after the pulls hit the body.

I'd appreciate any suggestions to maximize my sustain and get the harmonics to jump out and sustain more.

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Bob "Wiz" Feinberg
1983 Rosewood Emmons D10 Push-Pull, with 8 pedals and 9 knee levers (Crawford Cluster), Lawrence LXR-16 pickups and aluminum necks. Nashville 400 amp with Peavey Mod. Emmons pedalbar mounted, and Goodrich LDR floor volume pedals.
I use and endorse Jagwire Strings and accessories.

Keep Steelin' but don't get caught!

Reporting member of SpamCop

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 22 Mar 2005 8:09 am

Reminds me of the chap that tightened all the loose screws in the back of his nice new transistor radio...guess what happened.

The tweak for most vibration in the body/legs has merit; the frequencies at which the body resonates will be the frequencies (and harmonics thereof) at which the lowest decay (max sustain) will occur...other frequencies will be more quickly absorbed.

After thought, ...you could try the glass of water trick.

[This message was edited by ed packard on 22 March 2005 at 08:10 AM.]

Cor Muizer Jr · Post by **Cor Muizer Jr** » 22 Mar 2005 10:03 am

hey forumbrothers,

i like to say i have a incredible long sustain aswell an superb sound from my Rains D10
and i have the vibrations in the legs.

so tell what is wrong with that.
i think there isn't anything wrong it's normal if you have some .

let me know your experience on this.

cor

Rains D10 8×5 RED

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 22 Mar 2005 1:12 pm

OK,some body got to do it,does wood necks count?? on sho-bud?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 22 Mar 2005 6:47 pm

A week or so ago there was a discussion about this and someone said that wooden necks get better sustain if they are screwed tight. My Emmons push/pull S12 with aluminum neck had been taken apart and put back together by the previous owner. The neck screws were tight. After reading about Buddy's experience somewhere a year or so ago, I loosened up the neck screws and the sustain improved.

The leg vibration test simply indicates that all the connections are solid from the bridge and nut to the body and legs. While the whole guitar is vibrating and thus absorbing some energy from the strings, all the mass of the instrument is being used to minimize this wasted vibration. This is better than if a loose connection is absorbing energy by allowing small parts to vibrate uncontrollably.

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 22 Mar 2005 8:49 pm

OK, I happened to be doing some maintenance on my new Fessy last week when I read about this neck screw issue. So, I tightened all the screws to see what would happen. THE TONE AND SUSTAIN WENT TO H$LL!!! GONE!! I was shocked. It sounded like a goose...honk, honk.

Well, of course, I loosened them back up, and guess what....NO HELP!! I was very nervous...what had I done!!!

There were a couple of neck screws I hadn't been able get to, without removing a cross-shaft. So, I put it off, and put it off.....till today. Just couldn't take it any more! Loosened those last two screws and guess what....OK I'll tell you.....THE TONE AND SUSTAIN CAME BACK IN SPADES!!!!

The guitar now has better tone than ever and sustains for forever (well, you know what I mean). I fell in love with my Fessy all over again.

Don't know exactly what happened, but all I did was loosen a bunch of screws and just snug them back in. My guess is that there has to be even tension across the neck. All I know is...it worked!!

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Every day is a Great day,
Mike
(aka Sideman)

[This message was edited by Mike Wheeler on 22 March 2005 at 08:51 PM.]

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 23 Mar 2005 10:00 am

Mike Wheeler;
That observation is exactly what I was looking for! I also have a couple of screws that are obscured by brackets and two that have the heads broken off (I got it that way).

I also found that many of the screws that fasten the endplates to the body (front-apron, back-apron and under the keyheads (totally stripped)) are stripped or almost stripped in the wood. Thus, I cannot really tighten down the endplates and I am probably losing a lot of sustain at those points. I don't feel the strings vibrate very strongly with my hand on the rear legs.

It has been recommended to me to insert a mix of wood putty and Elmers glue into the stripped holes, let it dry overnight, then reset the screws. Does anybody have a better suggestion for a filler to renew the worn out threads in the body holes?

Wiz[This message was edited by Wiz Feinberg on 23 March 2005 at 11:17 AM.]

Cor Muizer Jr · Post by **Cor Muizer Jr** » 23 Mar 2005 11:09 am

okay steelbrothers,

sounds like if the vibration in the legs is not that much it would be okay, or am i wrong on that?

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Cor
soundengineer/steelplayer Rains D10 8×5 RED

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 23 Mar 2005 11:22 am

Cor;
What I think is that if you cannot feel the vibrations in the legs of your steel you do not have maximum body contact at the endplates, and are losing sustain that could be transferred from the endplates, legs and floor.

Others seem to think that this contact is useless, or even counter-productive. I think that the more solid the total assembly is, the better the sustain, but I have learned that this does not apply when it comes to aluminum necks.

This is a most interesting thread and I hope that we continue to get input as people experiment and report their findings. Mine pertain to a 1983 Emmons Push Pull, with Rosewood Formica overlays.

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Bob "Wiz" Feinberg
1983 Rosewood Emmons D10 Push-Pull, with 8 pedals and 9 knee levers (Crawford Cluster), Lawrence LXR-16 pickups and aluminum necks. Nashville 400 amp with Peavey Mod. Emmons pedalbar mounted, and Goodrich LDR floor volume pedals.
I use and endorse Jagwire Strings and accessories.

Keep Steelin' but don't get caught!

Reporting member of SpamCop

Cor Muizer Jr · Post by **Cor Muizer Jr** » 23 Mar 2005 11:39 am

well Wiz thats exactly what i think.
my Rains guitar is absolutly solid, everything is just fit right and i have a incredible sustain aswell the sound is.
so if i think about it because of i'm interested in this technical knowledge it is pretty normal that there is some vibration in the legs.

but as you say well hope more steelers here let know there experience and knowledge because it is a interesting thread.

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Cor
soundengineer/steelplayer Rains D10 8×5 RED

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 23 Mar 2005 11:55 am

Just for clarification, the "just snug" screws were the neck screws. The end plates and changer assembly are good and tight....if not the thing would flop around everytime I push a knee lever. That combo worked for me.

On the stripped screws(?)....if it's the holes in the wood that are stripped, I'd advise taking a couple of toothpicks (1 if round kind, 2 if flat kind), break them in half and dip the fat ends in Elmers Wood Glue and stuff them into the holes (cut off the excess even with the surface)...only one if it's the round kind or two if it's the flat kind for a #6 or #8 hole....then put the screw back in the hole. (learned this from a master cabinet builder)

For stripped screws going into metal, use self-tapping screws from the hardware store that are 1 size bigger. If the screws themselves are what's stripped, and the hole is still OK, using a Q-tip wet with WD40, try to clean out the metal shavings from the hole before putting a new screw (same size) in there. If the new screw won't hold, the hole is damaged too, so do the self-tapping screw thing. (got these tips from a machinist)

In any case, the end plates have to be solidly attached or the guitar just isn't going to be physically stable.

That's my story, and I'm stuck with it! lol

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Every day is a Great day,
Mike
(aka Sideman)

[This message was edited by Mike Wheeler on 23 March 2005 at 11:57 AM.]

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 23 Mar 2005 11:58 am

Agreed Cor.
Thanks for the toothpick tip Mike.

It just dawned on me that aluminum necks, although being hollowed out in the middle, do serve a function other than sonic issues. Being modified I-beams, they must have some impact on countering body collapse when pedals are engaged. If that is true, then loosening them too much might increase collapse on un-pedaled strings. There would have to be a point of maximum mutual benefit, where the necks are tight enough to counter the collapse upon pedalling, yet not so tight as to impair sustain.

Hmmmm...

Wiz[This message was edited by Wiz Feinberg on 23 March 2005 at 02:21 PM.]

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 23 Mar 2005 12:18 pm

And I agree with you, Wiz. I think there is a balance. The aluminum neck would help stiffen the cabinet to resist drop, but at the same time would seem to hamper the resonance of the wood cabinet. Oh, the mysteries of life....

Buddy had it right. We could mess things up real good if we weren't very careful to pay attention to each and every change we make.

Experiments could be in order to find that balance, but be prepared for problems. In the course of adjusting, I can see where one could cause other factors to become unbalanced. I think such an experiment should be done with the guitar straight into the amp, no reverb or anything, not even a volume pedal. Then any subtle changes in tone could more easily be detected. Man, that could be a long experiment....there's a lot of screws in a steel!! But then again, the resulting tone improvement could be dazzling. I think I was very lucky with my results.

So, it's disclaimer time....kids, don't try this at home. Leave it to professionals, they know what they are doing. lol!!

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Every day is a Great day,
Mike
(aka Sideman)