Copedant ideas for pedal 4

Burton Lee · Post by **Burton Lee** » 17 Aug 2004 9:06 am

Alright friends,

I have an underutilized 4th pedal on my MCI. I am about to redo my copedant to match my beautiful emmons (thanks Bobby!!!) setup, and I'm looking to add pulls on pedal 4 to the E neck. P4 currently pulls the 4th string A to a B on the C neck. I do not pull the octave below that. There is almost no tension on the pedal at all.

I know about the PF pedal, but I'm not sure what I'd use it for. What else would you put on a p4?

I probably don't need anything since I can't think of what I'm missing but maybe you see a gap...

Here is the setup I'm going to have without the extra pulls on p4:

<pre>
E9:
A B C LKL LKV LKR RKL RKR
F# +G
D# +E -D/C#
G# +A
E +F# +F -D#
B +C# +C# -A#
G# +A
F# +G
E +F -D#
D -C#
B +C# -A#
</pre>

Thanks in advance for your advice!
Burton Lee
Denton, TX
[This message was edited by Burton Lee on 17 August 2004 at 10:09 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 17 Aug 2004 9:33 am

I'd lower both G#'s to G.

Dean Parks · Post by **Dean Parks** » 17 Aug 2004 9:35 am

Burton-

I'm no expert, pretty new at PSG, but I notice you don't have a string 6 G# to F#. This seems useful to me, for adding action to an E-no-pedal chord, and to use with RKR for a pure 5 chord (B chord) using strings 4,5,6. Use with RKL on strings 5,6 for minor thirds moving down to major thirds. Use with pedal 3 on strings 4,5,6 to slide from the major chord to an open fifth a step up (modern-sounding move I think?). Also, skipping from pedal 2 to new pedal 4, lots of fun horsing around with the G# string.

Then using 4 for string 5 B to A is not bad also.

-dean-[This message was edited by Dean Parks on 17 August 2004 at 10:51 AM.]

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 17 Aug 2004 11:29 am

I´ve said it before and I say it again: any need for extra changes depends on the kind of music you play and your personal preferences! Never put anything on just because you heard about it or because it´s some kind of fashion. The G# to G is very useful if you can envision it somewhere in your playing. If you like Paul Franklin and the modern style licks, the PF pedal is the way to go. If you like older stuff or western swing, the "reverse PF pedal", i.e. that raises strings 5 and 6 a whole tone, might be an interesting alternative since it´s the equivalent to pedal 7 on C6. I personally would also consider the "Tom Brumley" pedal, raise string 7 a whole tone; lets you do pretty much the same things as a 6th string whole step lower. Tom also raises string 10 a whole tone on that pedal.
If I had 4 pedals for E9, I personally would also seriously consider a single 4th string E to F# raise on far right... since I play a lot of Mooney stuff and besides, the single E to F# opens up new worlds independent from the C pedal. Much has been written here already about that change.

Good luck, JH[This message was edited by Joe Henry on 17 August 2004 at 12:33 PM.]

Burton Lee · Post by **Burton Lee** » 17 Aug 2004 1:42 pm

Great ideas all around. I think I'll start with the G# to G pull. I've been thinking about that one for a while now.

Thanks!
Burton

Jerry Hayes R.I.P. · Post by **Jerry Hayes R.I.P.** » 17 Aug 2004 2:18 pm

Burton,
that G# to G pedal is a great choice but for the best combinations and usage it should go on pedal 1 and them move everything else over a space so your A, B, & C pedals are on 2,3,& 4. You get some great chords and voicings by using it with your A pedal. I personally use the Brumley pedal that raises string 7, F# to G# on my pedal one and I wouldn't change that for anything. Have a good 'un..JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 17 Aug 2004 2:55 pm

I agree with Jerry re: the placement of G#-G. It should be on the far left in p.1 position. And like Joe Henry suggests, p.8 should have an E-F# only raise. Then you'll be set to play full on Ralph Mooney style!

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Burton Lee · Post by **Burton Lee** » 18 Aug 2004 3:02 pm

Well, I've got the final copedant worked up. I took all my cross rods out and cleaned and lubricated them today. Tomorrow I clean the changer and put this setup on the guitar:

<pre>
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LKL LKV LKR RKL RKR
F# +G
D# +E -D/C#
G# -G +A
E +F# +F# +F -D#
B +C# +C# -A#
G# -G +A
F# +G
E +F
D -C# -D#
B +C# -A#

D
E +F
C +D -B
A +B +B +Bb
G -F#
E -Eb
C +C#
A
F +F# -E
C +D -A
</pre>

Any last minute suggestions?

Thanks!!
Burton Lee
Denton, TX

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 18 Aug 2004 3:26 pm

I don't understand your LKV, Burton. What's the point of raising the first two strings by the same amount, keeping the interval between them the same?

I raise my first string to G, and to me the whole reason for it is to widen the interval between the two strings. I sometimes run harmonized thirds up and down the neck on strings 1 and 2, just using that one lever.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 18 August 2004 at 04:27 PM.]

Burton Lee · Post by **Burton Lee** » 18 Aug 2004 4:18 pm

Hmmm, yes...

I don't know why it is there.

A very wise man told me to put it there when I originally talked to him about raising string 1 to G instead of G# and moving it to the vertical, but he did not tell me why. I have not yet discovered its usefulness, so I should probably leave it off this guitar.

My reason for the G was a dominant 7 with pedals down, and for a minor open chord (which is now superfluous because of pedal 0).

Thanks, b0b. Any other goofs?

Burton Lee
Denton, TX[This message was edited by Burton Lee on 18 August 2004 at 05:19 PM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 18 Aug 2004 4:47 pm

You have a typo on RKR. You're showing lowering 9 D-D# and it should be 8 E-D#.

I'd say if you're going to raise 2 D#-E, you should raise both F#'s-G# on the same lever. A lot of people, myself included, have been able to use the 2nd string as a half stop for the F#'s-G.

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 18 Aug 2004 10:38 pm

If you swap LKR and RKR you would gain a whole lot of very useful combinations.

You might still want the F# to G on string 1 & 7 even if the minor chord can also be found by using P0.

If you decide on only raising 1&7 to G then consider lowering 2nd string to D at the same time.

On the other hand if you go for
1&7 F# to G# then consider raising 2nd string to E.

The lower/raise of string 2 in those 2 changes is optional IMO. Anyway by having the pullrod there one can back off the nylon tuner if one wants to do without the change for a particular song

Kneelever setup
<pre>
LKL LKV LKR P0 A B C RKL RKR
F# G
Eb (D) D-C#
G# G A
E F Eb F#
B C# C# Bb
G# G A
F# G
E F Eb
D C#
B C# Bb

or like this

LKL LKV LKR P0 A B C RKL RKR
F# G#
Eb (E) D-C#
G# G A
E F Eb F#
B C# C# Bb
G# G A
F# G#
E F Eb
D C#
B C# Bb
</pre>

Reason for moving LKR to RKR and vice versa is:
RKR (2&9 -> C#)can be used with either LKL(E -> F) or LKR(E -> Eb)

RKL (B -> Bb) can be used with LKR (E -> Eb) together w A+B pedals for a nice diminshed chord voicing)

Keep the pedals w the G#-G at P0

On strings 10 8 6 5 4 3 pressing P0 + A will give a minor with a b5 note on top, releasing P0, still holding Apedal changes the voicing to a minor chord and then pressing LKL still holding A pedal change the chord to Major.

Hold Apedal down for the whole Tabulature example

<pre>
G Am Bdim C
F#------------------------------
Eb------------------------------
G#-------6------8-----10b--11---
E-------6#-----8-----10----11#--
B------6##----8##---10##---11##-
G#----6------8-----10b-----11---
F#------------------------------
E-------------------------------
D-------------------------------
B-------------------------------
Press A+LKL A P0+A A+LKL
</pre>

Bengt Erlandsen[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 18 August 2004 at 11:47 PM.][This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 19 August 2004 at 10:58 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 18 Aug 2004 11:25 pm

Definitely think about having the D# s2 to D on the 4 pedal with those G's. for the dom7

Also on C6
Try raising the C's to C# on P4. your already have the B on RKL[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 19 August 2004 at 07:11 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 19 Aug 2004 8:49 am

I think that if you pull the second string down to D on the lever that raises the first string to G, you lose most of the functionality of the G change. You have another lever that gives you the D note when you need it. The major third harmony (Eb & G) on the first two strings is very useful in all kinds of music.

Consider this copedent. I'd be hard-pressed to imagine any high string licks that aren't possible using this "atomic" approach.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Jerry Hayes R.I.P. · Post by **Jerry Hayes R.I.P.** » 19 Aug 2004 8:52 am

Doesn't Jimmy Crawford raise the 1st string to G and the 2nd to E on his floor pedal next to his volume pedal. He taps it with his right foot for some Chicken Pickin' Licks if I'm not mistaken so it must be useful....JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Burton Lee · Post by **Burton Lee** » 19 Aug 2004 10:15 am

b0b, I feel like my entire copedant is redundant. I thought about simplifying the whole thing back down to basics, but I've got room on the pulls so it'd be silly to leave them empty. I like how Lloyd doesn't move his octaves together.

I'm still cleaning the changer so I have some more time to think about it.

Maybe I'll just set it up like my push/pull and not add anything at this point.

If I do add the pedal 0 lowering the Gs, the D# to D pull makes sense with it. Not on the vertical F#s to G.

[This message was edited by Burton Lee on 19 August 2004 at 11:17 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 19 Aug 2004 3:06 pm

If you're tuning JI or anything close to it, you'll quickly discover that there are two different G notes. One of them is in tune with the second string Eb, and the other is in tune with the 4th string E and the 2nd string lowered to D.

I tune the 3rd string G to the E, and the first string G to the Eb. I gotta admit that I use the first string change a lot more. It tends to put me in "Lloyd mode".

Steve Knight · Post by **Steve Knight** » 20 Aug 2004 5:50 am

I noticed a few people suggested moving the first 3 pedals over to the right & putting the new G# to G pedal in position 1. I'm curious, why it's not better to just put the new lower on the 4th pedal & leave the first 3 pedals in place?

Thank you,

SK

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 20 Aug 2004 6:58 am

There is combinations together w either the Apedal or raising E's to F that would be tricky if the pedal was located to the right.

B.Erlandsen

Steve Knight · Post by **Steve Knight** » 20 Aug 2004 10:17 am

OK. Thank you, Bengt.

SK