Keyless Pros or Cons ?

Richard Tipple · Post by **Richard Tipple** » 19 Sep 2015 10:11 am

Ive never owned or played a ,Keyless steel, just wondering from some of the keyless players,,,do you have any pros or cons ?
Ive herd the Keyless steel has a great tuning history

stays in tune well ?

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 19 Sep 2015 3:26 pm

This has been discussed before. In short, some people prefer keyless but most people are content with the conventional tuners. Any well designed and built instrument should stay in tune if you look after it.

One thing a keyless tuner does is to make the instrument shorter, which is a pro for some but a con for those who are used to the A&B pedals left of the nut.

It is worth distinguishing between keyless tuners which retain the roller nut and the spare length of string between it and the string carrier; and the nut-free type like my design (see left unless I've changed my avatar) where you can roll smoothly on and off the end without a bump.

Steve Mueller · Post by **Steve Mueller** » 19 Sep 2015 3:42 pm

I have a new Williams D12 keyless as well as a 2012 Williams D10 keyed guitar. They both stay in tune equally well but the keyless is quicker to tune in my opinion because the higher gear ratio on the keyless tuner makes small adjustments easier. You don't have to worry about bumping the keys on a small stage and changing strings is quicker and simpler. The smaller size makes the guitar lighter - the keyless D12 is not much heavier than my keyed D10, I can't really tell and difference - both under 40 lbs or so. Some say hysteresis is minimized with keyless(I agree) because of the minimal distance between the nut and the tuner. Any future guitars for me will be keyless.

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 19 Sep 2015 6:34 pm

Keyless to the core!!!!!! Keyless Rules,,,,

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 19 Sep 2015 7:53 pm

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Rich Upright · Post by **Rich Upright** » 19 Sep 2015 9:42 pm

I have never heard a keyless guitar that had what I consider a great tone; the ones I have heard & played sounded dull, flat, & lifeless. I prefer a keyhead/aluminum neck tone. But that's just me. Your results may vary.

steve takacs · Post by **steve takacs** » 20 Sep 2015 2:38 am

All I can say is I have a number of brands of keyed guitars and also Kliine keyless. The Kline's tone is as good as any of those keyed steels.

Being a lazy sod, I prefer the keyless when it comes to changing strings as it takes less time. Also, I have never broken a string 3 on a Kline and I don't change strings very often. stevet

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 20 Sep 2015 6:04 am

They may sound the same but I just don't like their looks.
It reminds me of when I was a kid and we had to chop the head off a chicken for dinner.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 20 Sep 2015 6:30 am

Erv Niehaus wrote:They may sound the same but I just don't like their looks.
It reminds me of when I was a kid and we had to chop the head off a chicken for dinner.

Yeah, but wasn't the final product delicious!?

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 20 Sep 2015 7:53 am

LOL,,,,here we go,,,,AGAIN !!! (steel guitar,,,,reminds of a chicken????,,,hummm)

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 20 Sep 2015 8:55 am

Strange,As long as I've been playing I've never played a keyless guitar...Larry Allen has a couple up here"Excell"...I should check them out

George Kimery · Post by **George Kimery** » 20 Sep 2015 2:13 pm

I have owned 3 keyed guitars and one Kline keyless. I prefer the keyless from a mechanical standpoint. You can't improve on just grab the string and pull. (like Tug of War) wrapping a bunch of wrappings around a peg then having a gear box with a thingy to turn with your fingers is just not as perfect and stable as "grab a hold and pull"

Some say the longer strings sustain longer, but that doesn't mean anything as long as your guitar will sustain the length of time that you need in the song. Anything more is a a non-issue. As far as I am concerned, when the string goes over the rollers at the nut, 99% of the sound stops there. I don't think there is going to be enough of a difference in the sound to worry about. My Kline was great sounding, just as good as the keyed guitars that I have had.

You can tune down to a note as well as up on a keyless. The shorter, keyless guitars, don't flex as much, so they have less de-tuning problems. The strings are shorter (up to 6 inches on some strings) so breaking strings is pretty much eliminated. I never broke a string on the Kline that I played for about 10 years. Changing strings is much faster on a keyless and much less movement when breaking the string in. I have had to replace keyed tuners several times. over time, they just reach a point that they have to be replaced.

The other 3 guitars that were keyed, were just the luck of the draw. I bought them used and at a good price and they just happened to be keyed. I wish they had been keyless, but keyed is OK. I would not turn down any guitar on the basis of keyed or keyless, based on my experience.

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 20 Sep 2015 3:03 pm

Well said George!! I think I bought your old Kline,,,??? Seems like I remember buying something from you.

Jack Wilson · Post by **Jack Wilson** » 20 Sep 2015 6:20 pm

One con of the keyless, is there is no place to put an ashtray or beer. One pro for keyless is there are no Grover tuners made in China. AS far as the look of a keyless, I think I would miss the chrome look of a 50s Buick grille.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 20 Sep 2015 6:43 pm

Jack Wilson wrote:One con of the keyless, is there is no place to put an ashtray or beer. One pro for keyless is there are no Grover tuners made in China. AS far as the look of a keyless, I think I would miss the chrome look of a 50s Buick grille.

Solution: Quit smoking and put the beer in your stomach.

The Kline I had sustained forever. I'm pretty sure it out sustained every other guitar I have owned.

George Kimery · Post by **George Kimery** » 20 Sep 2015 7:18 pm

Sonny, you are right, you did buy the Kline that I had. I made a big mistake when I sent it to a guy to have it converted from a Universal to an Extended E-9th with a lot of odd pedal changes. I wasn't playing any of the B6th stuff,so I figured I would be better off without the B6 side and just have an E9th on steroids.

I think you sent it to Joe Kline and had him convert it back to a Universal, if my memory serves me correctly.

I am much wiser now. If I had it to do all over, I would still be playing that Kline as a Universal. Loved it and as we all have, I made a mistake in selling it. Just like I did my 1968 Black Emmons PP for $900.00. That was a fair price when I sold it at the time. The Emmons was my first guitar, the Kline was my 2nd. I wanted to go to a universal and talked to Ron Lashley Sr.about building me a PP Universal, but he advised against it.

I was attending Jeff Newman's school and he was playing a Kline U-12. I thought it sounded very close to my Emmons and I loved the way it played, so I sold the Emmons and bought the Kline. I am now playing a Zum D-10.

Sonny Jenkins · Post by **Sonny Jenkins** » 21 Sep 2015 8:07 am

Yes George,,I think everyone I've ever talked to that owned,,then sold a Kline wishes they had it back,,,,,me 6 times over!!!,,,LOL!! (fools never learn,,LOL). I'm looking forward to getting this one finished and playable (if ever),,,even though I don't play that much anymore, I'm going to do my best to keep it,,,and hopefully build another one!

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