Half Stop Split Trick

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 13 Feb 2001 8:01 pm

I'm not sure if this is common practice or another of Bill Rudolph's ingenius inventions, but it struck me as pretty clever.

On my new Williams, I have the half stop lower on string 2 (E9th) and the feel stop is set by the 9th string lower. Nothing real ususual about that, except for the fact that it's 100% tunable with no extra parts.

First you tune the 2nd string lower D# to C#. Then you adjust the 9th string lower to set the feel stop (D on the 2nd string). You can increase the rigidity of the feel stop by tightening the lower spring on the 9th string.

Finally you tune the 9th string lower using the split tuner screw! Whoa! That's really trick! No extra parts, and everything tunes up real nice.

Am I the only one who was never hip to this? Or is it a radical technique? (Or both?!)

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session S-12 (E9), Williams DX-10 (E9, D6), Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra 8 Laptop (D13), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, A6)

Graham · Post by **Graham** » 13 Feb 2001 8:18 pm

b0b:
Hope nobody answers you until you post some pics of that new steel of yours!!

How about it people?? Cold shoulder 'til he quits teasing us!!

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Rebel™
ICQ 614585

http://users.interlinks.net/rebel/steel/steel.html

[This message was edited by Graham on 13 February 2001 at 08:22 PM.]

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 13 Feb 2001 9:18 pm

Your description sounds like the system of the Zum and others. A screw in a stationary block on the guitar limits the lowest point of travel for that string. The tuning nuts on the moving rods adjust the other pitches.

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 13 Feb 2001 9:21 pm

You know, that half stop on my Dekley is the only feature of the guitar that I NEVER use. It's too unreliable to use in live playing situtations. Glad you got one that works well.

LARRY COLE · Post by **LARRY COLE** » 14 Feb 2001 4:03 am

I have my Sho-Bud pro 1 set up like that. It don't have splits and it still works fine. When I added two knee levers, I was going to put a half stop on and Ed Naylor told me how to do this and it works great.

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LC. WILLIAMS U12, SHO-BUD PRO1,CARVIN TL60

Dag Wolf · Post by **Dag Wolf** » 14 Feb 2001 5:17 am

Bob, Earnest are right about the Zum who have had this feature for years on their steels. Emmons have it too but still they use the additional parts for the half stop....wonder why?

I`ve got a Sho bud set up this way too and sometimes you get lucky when the D - C# 9th string drop right in tune.

If it comes flat it`s possible to put on a rod on the raise finger of the 9th string and just tune it up a bit again.

I think this is wath MCI used to get the split.

Also change gauges on the 9th string might do the trick.

Dag

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 14 Feb 2001 5:29 am

I've never been able to "feel" the half stop on the 2nd string. My Franklin came with the feel stop set up on the 2nd string lower on the C6th neck (I lower that string a half tone). I couldn't "feel" that stop so I added an underneath "feel" stop with a spring loaded adjustment but that still doesn't really work well. When I added the 9th string to that knee lever, it does engage the 9th string drop at approximately the 2nd string half stop but with the 9th string and the underneath spring loaded stop I still can't feel it and in playing situations it's still a guessing game.

If I ever buy another new steel it will have two separate knee levers, the only way to have a positve stop.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 14 Feb 2001 7:23 am

B0b, I had my Emmons' LeGrande II equipped with their standard under the guitar "half-stop" on the second string.

I never did like it.

Shortly after I got the guitar in the 80's, somebody told me about the trick of using the 9th string "split screw" for getting that "half-stop" on the 2nd string. I tried it and found it much better than the factory method. The nicest part of course is you could tune everything without reaching under the guitar to do it. Plus you could "time" the split so you had a D on the second and 9th strings together.

Having said all that, I have to agree with Jack Stoner. And I have to go along with Jeff Newman. "Half-stops are NOT a good idea". At least not for me and whole lot of players I have spoken with. Two knee levers has just got to be the answer.

carl

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 14 Feb 2001 8:00 am

b0b,
As has already been said, I have a recently-made Zum, and tuning the 2nd string half-stop on the 9th string pull, and using the split tuning feature to then tune the 9th string, is standad and part of the instructions that come with the instrument.
And Carl, I think the problem with separating the 2nd string pulls is which pedal do you use now. You can't give up the E->F or the E->Eb. That leaves the knee pedal that raises string 1 and lowers string 6, or you need to use a vertical, or staggered knee. The vertical is not a good choice since the 2nd string lower often doesn't include any other pulls. And most steels don't have stagged knees. So what do you do??

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Feb 2001 8:49 am

I used to think that the half stop was a bad idea, but now I'm really getting used to it. I can hit it very reliably on my Sierra, and I'm "in the ball park" on the new Williams.

Joe Wright said something once that really stuck with me. He had mentioned a half-pedal technique, and I said that half pedals were hard to hit. Joe told me that I wasn't playing the guitar, I was letting the guitar play me!

The more I thought about it, the more I came to agree with the "Wright" way. You can train your muscles to do anything with your guitar. It's all a matter of learning where that musical stop is, and practicing until you can hit it every time.

Joe is my guru!

By the way, the pictures are being developed.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session S-12 (E9), Williams DX-10 (E9, D6), Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra 8 Laptop (D13), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 14 February 2001 at 08:50 AM.]

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 14 Feb 2001 11:42 am

BOb,
"thanks to Carl" and this forum, I too found out about setting up the half tone feel this way awhile back.I have a Emmons LeGrande III. I have disabled the stock half tone feel and set it up this way and the feel is "much better" than the stock Emmons device, plus, like Carl said, it is all "tunable" from up on top!
I never did like reaching around underneath the guitar for that "oily gizmo" any way.I like the idea of being able to tune the 9th string and the "D" note of the second string together. And you never get that "double bump" feel like I used to get with the stock Emmons setup.
I love my L-III, but that stock half tone feel setup has got to go!(IMHO)

Dave

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 14 Feb 2001 6:34 pm

I agree with Bobby, Jack, and Carl here. I want a positive stop! I have the 2nd string lowered 1/2 tone, and then a full tone with two different pedals. I do some very quick stuff, and I can't "guess" when things are moving fast. I gladly sacrifice a change to make what I got more useable. To me, it's not "what you got", it's "how well you use it!".

Half-stops are only practical on the slow stuff (in my book).

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 14 Feb 2001 7:16 pm

Donny,
What did you give up?

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 14 Feb 2001 7:31 pm

To me half stops are less critical during fast licks.

The notes come and go so fast it's hard to tell if one is a little off now and then. Slow licks on the other hand, allow every little nuance of a note or chord to ring, and they had better be in tune.

Al Udeen · Post by **Al Udeen** » 14 Feb 2001 7:56 pm

I have had my 2nd string on 2 knee levers for over 30 yrs! there is no way it will work in tune on 1 knee!

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 14 Feb 2001 8:09 pm

What Jim said.And I have all my half-stops even the ones on C6th set up like Carl and b0b.The only problem I see is, half stops don't react the same way when your letting off the knee as they do when your pressing the knee.This can make for some ugly chords on slow tunes.You have to know,or make friends with your guitar as Lloyd Green would say.Simply put, you compensate with the bar.

Bob Brocius · Post by **Bob Brocius** » 14 Feb 2001 10:09 pm

Al, I must take exception to your statement that there is no way it will work. I just checked my new Zum and even did it with a Tuner. The notes are all dead on.

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Bobby Brocius, ZumSteel D-10, 8x8, Blue, BL910s
JCH D-10 9x7 Probably for sale soon

Al Udeen · Post by **Al Udeen** » 15 Feb 2001 1:06 am

Bob B. When I say it wont work, I mean a perfect half tone drop every time, try hitting a full tone lower, and quickly let the lever back to a "in tune" half drop! If you can do this every time, your a better man than me! >al

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 15 Feb 2001 6:03 am

I have the same problem as Al with this.Maybe it's my guitar that's holding me back.

No like I said before I just try to compensate for this.Where it gets tricky is when you play several guitars.Even the same brands respond differently to this situation.I find the same problem when half-pedaling.The true pitch is usually near the top when pressing the pedal and closer to the bottom when releasing the pedal.You just have to use your ears.[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 15 February 2001 at 06:07 AM.][This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 15 February 2001 at 06:41 AM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 15 Feb 2001 10:46 am

Jeff said,

"And Carl, I think the problem with separating the 2nd string pulls is which pedal do you use now."

Well I don't use a pedal. I use two different knee levers on two different knees.

To see my tuning, click on the link below. Note: Disregard the "switcover" setup. Just look at the guitar as ordered from Excel. The "switchover" is not pertinent to this response.

http://b0b.com/tunings/CarlDixon.html

Take care and God bless,

carl

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 22 Feb 2004 9:13 am

I'm bumping this 3-year-old topic to the top because someone asked me about it in email. For the record, I no longer use a half stop. It's one of those things that I just couldn't master. I could do it in the privacy of my music room, but on stage I couldn't focus on it well enough to hit it reliably.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 22 Feb 2004 11:17 am

I must agree with b0b totally. There is simply no way I ever found a half-stop to be consistently reliable every time. This is why I have the D# to D, and D# to C# on two separate levers on my U-12. I could never go back to a half-stop.

(For whatever it's worth, I have changed my copedent slightly since the tuning "linked" in my post on this thread of several years back.

I have eliminated the double vertical knee lever raising 4 and 8 a whole tone. I have made the B to Bb Vertical a long knee lever. Incidently, it does not pivot at either end; rather it goes straight up and down.

In addition I have added a 7th pedal where it raises 4 and 8 to an F#. Then use my right foot exclusively when trying to engage this pedal with A and/or B. Works great for me. I rationlized, "If its good enough for Mooney, it should work for me". Sure enough that has been proven to be true.)

carl

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 22 Feb 2004 11:24 am

Bob,

Half stops and half pedals are the most difficult to master. They can be a definite source of frustration but the upside is that they also offer more easily accessible musical possibilities once you get past the head game of missing the stop....Paul

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 22 Feb 2004 12:37 pm

I recently made my lower F# go a full tone up to G#. on my inside right KL. I wanted a "half stop" on it, so I use the start of the pull of the high F# ( which still only goes up a half tone, and the C lower on the C6 on the same KL as that "half stop". It's relatively easy to feel, and is tuneable through juggling the rod adjustments. It's been a GREAT change. I use it a lot both without and with the AB combo.

EJL