Serious Overtuning Issue

[John Booth]

Legrande III
I know this has been addressed but I couldn't get a clear answer here
I threw on a new brand of strings - wound vs plain was all the same,
but required some tweaking to tune, however, I seem to have overtuned badly.
I'm about to loosen ALL the nylon tuners and start over. Is this a good idea or am I setting myself up for more problems?
Also, if I DO loosen them all, is there a sequence I should use while retuning?
Thanks guys
JB

[Lane Gray]

It's a fine idea. I'd start with the half step changes first.

[Jon Light (deceased)]

Personally, my first step would be to turn the guitar over and identify which rods are overtuned, via:

--Visual inspection of the fingers, seeing if any are out of line (in other words, are being suspended off their stops by overtuned nylon nuts),

and

--physical inspection by grasping the nut and seeing if it has any slack.

The objective is to get slack into the pull train by changing rodding or changing length of the pull via pedal/lever stops.

I wouldn't want to make extra work by loosening nuts on any strings that are ok.

[Rich Upright]

I try to stick with the same brand (GHS Boomers) so when I replace, I almost never hafta re-tune; maybe 1 string a hair.
I buy my strings locally in bulk a few sets at a time, since the store I get them from is 58 miles from me.

See if you can get the same brand again & just tune back down.

[John Booth]

I usually use Livestrings brand and everything always works well, I used a different brand this time because so many fellas on here swear by them (I won't mention the brand name) but they simply put me way out of whack. I cut em off and went back to another brand and in 5 mins everything worked great.
Thanks guys
JB

[Richard Sinkler]

I still don't understand how a different brand, with exactly the same gauges, can cause a drastic change in the pedal travel and/or the amount of turns the nylon tuner has to be turned. I have never had an issue like this.

[chris ivey]

me neither.

[John Booth]

I don't get it either guys, but I took off "Brand A" which were 100% in tune, and replaced them with "Brand B", exactly the same gauges and the tuning was so whacked I couldn't play them, and couldn't get some of them to tune at all.

Then I replaced "Brand B" with "Brand A" again and within 5 minutes my strobe was reading dead on for every pedal/knee. It's a quandary no doubt. I was looking for Rod Serling up in here.

I've been hacking at steel since the 80's and have never seen anything like it.

[Richard Sinkler]

[Mike Wheeler]

Guys, the core wire used in wound strings isn't always the same from one brand to another. So when you try to tune a pull it won't work the same as before.

Thinner strings have to be pulled a longer distance to change from one note to another note....B to C# for instance. If a new string uses a thinner core wire than the previous string used (even thought the gauge is identical), the pedal , or lever, won't seem to make it all the way to the desired note. It comes up flat because the new string needs to be pulled just a little further. This creates a problem since the pull mechanics need to be adjusted to allow for a longer pull.

If the new string has a thicker core wire (of course using a thinner wrap wire,) but is the same gauge as the original string, the opposite will be true. The pedal will pull the string sharp because it doesn't need to be pulled quite as far. This scenario is easy to deal with since you only need to back off the nylon tuner to achieve correct pitch.

Hope I got that right....my brain hurts now!

[Richard Sinkler]

So then, a person should not see any issues on the plain strings. Only the wound ones, right?

[Niels Andrews]

It seems the only time your pull would change might be by changing diameter of the string?I change strings about every 4 to 6 weeks and I seldom have to do much tuning and I have a tuner permanently in the system. I have seen more change with temperature.

[Donny Hinson]

Legrande III
I seem to have overtuned badly.
I'm about to loosen ALL the nylon tuners and start over. Is this a good idea or am I setting myself up for more problems?

I wouldn't do this unless I had a problem with every string and every pedal. Very often it's one or two pedals that have a problem, and everything else is okay. Work on one pedal until you get it right, then go to the next pedal. Also, it almost goes without saying that you have to pay as much attention to the tuning with pedals up as you do with pedals down! Overtuning comes about when players aren't paying attention to the open (unpedaled) string, and instead, just go cranking away at the nylon tuner to try to get where they want to be. If you ever turn the nylon tuner, and it changes the open tuning, alarm bells should be going off, because you've just crossed over into "you can't get there from here" territory.

[John Booth]

I am convinced that all grades of nickle or stainless are not created equal.
Two different 11's from two different manufacturers will have slightly different
tensile strengths and stretch qualities

Also, what Wheeler said definitely plays int it when the CORE
of a wound string varies in size.

This is probably to be expected when you go from one mfgr to another,
but should be only minimal and require only very minor adjustments to compensate.

Strangely tho, when I put on "Brand B" the difference was FAR from minor,
requiring VERY extreme compensations and would have necessitated my
messing with bell crank rod positions, multiple turns on my nylon tuners,
and I still would not have achieved some of the more extreme pulls as
PSG changers do have their limits.

I was definitely "over-tuning" to make these compensations and still not
achieving some of the pulls. Fortunately I counted my turns on each nylon tuner,
returned them to their approximate starting points, cut off the Brand B strings,
and returned to my usual brand which in turn returned everything to near perfect,
and with less than a half-turn on my nylons everything fell perfectly back into place.

What have I learned? Stick with what I know works for my particular PSG,
which in my case is Live Strings of standard gauges with the exception
of using a .12 for both the 1st and 3rd string on my LeGrande III.

I don't know if this helps anyone else, but it works for me and I've
been yanking wood and wire for about 35 years now.

Thanks for all the input guys.
JB

[Richard Sinkler]

That maybe tells me that your guitar was probably very close to be over tuned at the start. Switching between string brands should not cause you have a large disparity between them, except the wound strings as has been mentioned concerning the core size. I switch between 3 brands right now, and never had that problem. In fact I don't remember ever having that problem in the 44 years I have been playing, and the many string brands used over the years, including switches between nickel and stainless many times. But in all fairness, I don't remember everything over that many years, but I have a great memory when it comes to my music career.

[chris ivey]

If you ever turn the nylon tuner, and it changes the open tuning, alarm bells should be going off, because you've just crossed over into "you can't get there from here" territory.

i hate to say donny's right, but that's the deal in a nutshell!
something else must have happened to john cause it doesn't make sense. did you put the strings on in the right order?

[John Peay]

I am convinced that all grades of nickle or stainless are not created equal.
Two different 11's from two different manufacturers will have slightly different
tensile strengths and stretch qualities

Also, what Wheeler said definitely plays int it when the CORE
of a wound string varies in size.

This is probably to be expected when you go from one mfgr to another,
but should be only minimal and require only very minor adjustments to compensate.

Strangely tho, when I put on "Brand B" the difference was FAR from minor,
requiring VERY extreme compensations and would have necessitated my
messing with bell crank rod positions, multiple turns on my nylon tuners,
and I still would not have achieved some of the more extreme pulls as
PSG changers do have their limits.

I was definitely "over-tuning" to make these compensations and still not
achieving some of the pulls. Fortunately I counted my turns on each nylon tuner,
returned them to their approximate starting points, cut off the Brand B strings,
and returned to my usual brand which in turn returned everything to near perfect,
and with less than a half-turn on my nylons everything fell perfectly back into place.

What have I learned? Stick with what I know works for my particular PSG,
which in my case is Live Strings of standard gauges with the exception
of using a .12 for both the 1st and 3rd string on my LeGrande III.

I don't know if this helps anyone else, but it works for me and I've
been yanking wood and wire for about 35 years now.

Thanks for all the input guys.
JB

I have experienced a very similar situation. In changing from "Brand X" to "Brand Y" (both nickel sets), and keeping all gauges and plain vs. wound the same, when tuning up I noticed that my new "Brand Y" strings required more pull to reach the changes. While the difference was not "extreme", it WAS significant enough that I would have had to adjust some rods in bellcranks and/or changer fingers to get there. True, I don't have a lot of slack at my tuners, but I don't want a lot of slack there...

And like the OP, I went back to "what works for me and my guitar" and all was fine.

[Jon Light (deceased)]

I cannot account for differences in plain strings (other than mislabeling or poor gauge quality control) but with the core differences in wound strings, there can definitely be significant differences.

Some strings companies advertise certain properties (such as shorter pulls) so I would think that these differences are deliberate and it is not surprising that they require some setting up.
I know that changing from nickel to stainless changes the length of pulls.

If you don't want to be messing with tuning your pedals/levers, yes, stick with the strings that your guitar is set up for. If you are looking to change what you've been using, expect to have to do some setup work.

[chris ivey]

....but with the same gauges i wouldn't expect to have to alter bellcrank positions.

[Georg Sørtun]

I am convinced that all grades of nickle or stainless are not created equal.
Two different 11's from two different manufacturers will have slightly different tensile strengths and stretch qualities

That is my experience too, and not just "slight" differences either.

Of the brands I have used the most, the 3d string (11.5 on my PSGs) have varied quite a bit. Jagwire LG series has been the tightest - shortest throw for a change. LSS about 5 cents longer, and (my old favorite) D'Addario about 20 cents longer.

[Bill Moran]

Over tuning ? I do that all the time. Tune it up on Sunday and play it for two weeks ! What's the problem ?

[Dave Mudgett]

My experience tells me that strings are not all the same. Mike is right about wrap vs. core ratio - different strings of the same overall gauge can have significantly different core gauge, and it can make a signficant difference in how much tension change is required to make a particular pitch change, as he correctly notes. And there are even more variables in string construction such as hex vs. round core, exactly what alloy is used in the core and/or wrap, the wrapping tightness, and so on. I've had strings of the exact same overall gauge that were very different, occasionally to the point where I would need to change leverages.

Of course, Donny is also correct - if you tighten a nylon and don't listen for the pitch of the open vs. pulled string, it can be pretty easy to over-tighten. Unless it's a real mess, I'd just look for individual over-tightened nylons. But once I dial in a steel, I almost always write down the exact make/model/gauges of strings and use the exact same type. If I change, I just assume I'm gonna have to rejig the guitar some.

[John Booth]

Listening for a pitch change of an open string when turning a nylon tuner should always be the first thing you do, especially when changing string brands. It's your first indication of over-tuning (I believe)

Also, if it ever takes more than a single 360 degree turn of a nylon tuner I start to think something is wrong.

Ivey brings up a good point, if a string is put on in the wrong place (say you swap strings 4 and 5 accidentally) you'll probably be in a world of hurt.

Honestly I don't know why "Brand 2" caused my issues to such extremes, perhaps they were packaged wrong, maybe I messed up in string order, could be many things, but as I said, going back to "Livestrings Brand" resolved my issues immediately.

Life is good again, all is right with the world.

[Richard Sinkler]

Dave M said:

But once I dial in a steel, I almost always write down the exact make/model/gauges of strings and use the exact same type.

Very sound advice. No pun intended.

[chris ivey]

i still can't believe this thread. i use any strings i can get cheap when i need them and never had a problem like this. 40 years.