Emmons p/p question

D Schubert · Post by **D Schubert** » 15 Dec 2003 11:10 am

Can somebody describe (or post pictures) of the different types of p/p changers used over the years? I would like to be able to tell them apart.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 15 Dec 2003 11:14 am

The changer has always been basically the same, it's the mounting system that has been changed over the years.

There's a website who's URL I've lost that has uses some close-ups of a few of my guitars showing each of the mounting types. Someone on the forum surely can post this for you.

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Bob Knight · Post by **Bob Knight** » 15 Dec 2003 11:38 am

Try here.

www.melmusic.com/laceyj/guide_notes.html

D Schubert · Post by **D Schubert** » 15 Dec 2003 12:40 pm

Thanks, guys! You can't beat this outfit for fast answers!

Bobby Bowman · Post by **Bobby Bowman** » 15 Dec 2003 1:04 pm

Herb is pretty much "on the money". However, there is a difference in the length of the changer fingers for the outside neck vs the inside neck of 1/4 inch.....the outside being longer.
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 15 Dec 2003 3:59 pm

Well, I'll agree with Bobby, but I don't agree that the length of the changer fingers... C6 and E9... being 1/4" different is a change in the design of the changer itself, since the length of the changer fingers have remained constant since late 1964.

HOWEVER...

Why I said the changer has "basically" stayed the same is that the very early guitars, like the first 10, had the tuning screw holes lower and closer together on the endplate, with the pickup jack between the two rows of holes, rather than above them. That means the first changer fingers had the tapped holes for the tuning screws in a different place.

I've owned Emmonses #7 and #8, and they both had this characteristic. I currently play #18, and that guitar has the screw holes in the traditional position.

Also, the original changers had holes for 1/2" axles. By guitar #23 (May 1965) the changers used 9/16" axles.

Mike Cass could speak more on this topic, but I think I have the basics.

This is SUPER trivia, but technically it is a change.

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Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 15 Dec 2003 4:29 pm

Herb,
Were the 1/2 inch axles made from valve stem shafts?
Did Emmons use cast fingers on your #7 or #8?
Were there spacers or washers between the fingers on #7 and #8?
Finally, when did the bulkheads or pillars or whatever you call the axle holders get closed-ended?
Thank you[This message was edited by Chris Lucker on 15 December 2003 at 04:33 PM.]

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 15 Dec 2003 11:25 pm

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ebradsarno/66photos.html

Here's a look at a '66 bolt-on changer. This changer remained with the wood necked guitars after '66. When the changer was bolted directly onto the aluminum neck as these were, there were tuning issues relating to wood/aluminum expansion differences. This changer was short lived on a metal neck for that reason. But there was a sound like no other. That's the sound that the George L's E-66 pickup was modelled after. It's pretty great sounding. Very deep and rich. Ballsy. The guitar that is.

Brad Sarno[This message was edited by Brad Sarno on 15 December 2003 at 11:26 PM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 16 Dec 2003 12:46 am

Chris
1. I don't know what the axles are made from.

2. The raise fingers look like they are roughly machined.

3. On #8 there is one large spacer between the s.1 changer finger and the axle pillar. I no longer have #7.

4. On #8 the axles are exposed. On #18 the axles are concealed. Number 18 is a wraparound, while #8 is a woodneck bolt-on, as was #7.

One thing more. On the bolt-ons #7-8, the axle pillars mount flush to the top of the tailpiece section, while later bolt-ons have deeper mounting pillars that sit in a milled shelf at the rear of the tailpiece.

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[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 16 December 2003 at 12:47 AM.]

Jay Ganz · Post by **Jay Ganz** » 16 Dec 2003 7:54 am

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[This message was edited by Jay Ganz on 05 January 2004 at 02:02 PM.]

Larry Moore · Post by **Larry Moore** » 16 Dec 2003 9:30 am

Herb,
I have a 67 PP D-10 S/N 1153-D, and the changer on the E-9th neck is appr. 1/4 longer than the C-6th neck.
The changer pull fingers are level on the bottom side. The difference is the E-9th neck being higher than the C-6th neck.
Mine looks just like the cut tail pic above Decal and all.
Larry

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 16 Dec 2003 10:58 am

Thank you for sharing your info, Herb.

One addition regarding finger length, the fingers on neckless Student Emmons guitars are even shorter than C6 fingers. One time I made the mistake of buying a junker Student guitar because I needed a C6 changer. Wooops.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 16 Dec 2003 11:15 am

One more thing about the early-early guitars. The raise fingers only had one connecting hole for the pull rods. And the pull rods were connected to the fingers not by heavy wire, but by heavy springs.

Prices:
Twin 10 (8 pedals) $995, Single 10 (6 pedals)$595. Extra pedals were $72.50, and knee levers $69.50

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D Schubert · Post by **D Schubert** » 16 Dec 2003 12:02 pm

Thanks again for all the informative responses, guys. Especially for those up-close nitty-gritty photos, Jay.

Jack Strayhorn · Post by **Jack Strayhorn** » 17 Dec 2003 7:27 pm

Wrap arounds were the first guitars. The bolt on was in 66 and 67. The split neck design was from 68 until the end.

Rick Johnson · Post by **Rick Johnson** » 18 Dec 2003 4:57 am

My '75 P/P is a bolt on, wooden necks.
Jacks comment implies that the split tail
was implemented in 66/67 until the end
of production. How did I get a bolt on
neck in '75?

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Rick Johnson

Mike Sweeney · Post by **Mike Sweeney** » 18 Dec 2003 5:38 am

Rick,

All wooden neck push-pulls use a bolt on changer.

Brendan Mitchell · Post by **Brendan Mitchell** » 18 Dec 2003 7:32 pm

Sorry to digress but when did the fatback evolve to cuttail?
Brendan

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 18 Dec 2003 10:37 pm

Brenden,The rear aprons where cut in 65. can't say for sure about 64.Then in 1970 they went with the fatback and then changed back to the Cut aprons but I can't remember the year.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 19 Dec 2003 6:41 am

Rear aprons were cut in 1964.

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John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 19 Dec 2003 8:55 am

"Sorry to digress but when did the fatback evolve to cuttail?" You're talking about 2 different parts of the guitar. Fatback refers to the rear apron and cuttail refers to the rear portion of the neck, behind the changer.

Charlie McVay · Post by **Charlie McVay** » 20 Dec 2003 8:14 am

i just joined this forum and seen it for the 1st time about 2weeks ago.i own 6 p/ps and restored or rebuilt many of them.i have 2 with wooden necks.one is a 76 and the other is a 69 #1287.this is a split tail and not a bolt on.my 76 is a bolt on.the changers are made of 2024 aluminum the shaft is 1020-1040 steel and is 9/16 dia.the fatback started in 1970.i not disputing anything, just trying to help.my 69 used to belong to tommy dodd.
Charlie McVay
ps:hi Mike Cass!

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 20 Dec 2003 11:08 am

MY '69 P/P was bought new in '69 and it had a full back (not routed out for the knees) often referred to as "fatback". Sometime after this, they began cutting out the bottom of the back.

carl

Brendan Mitchell · Post by **Brendan Mitchell** » 20 Dec 2003 9:18 pm

Sorry ,my mistake about cuttail.I was referring to the cut out on the rear apron.I have a Blackrock that has the cut out -74- I think and an aluminium S10 with the fatback that came to me with 6 pedals and 1 knee lever.
Regards Brendan