E-9th -- that pesky 9th string !!

Moon in Alaska · Post by **Moon in Alaska** » 14 Jul 2001 12:57 pm

I had tuned that string position {string just below the bottom E] on 8 string to C# for a long time when I switched to 10 string E-9th. For a couple of years I tried to use the 9th string D, but finally give up and for the past several years I tune the 9th to C# and raise it to D on my vertical knee. I seem to use the C# at least 4 times as much as I do the D. I know this is unusual -- probable my technique is so set, I resist change !! One thing I do like, My A pedal only raises the 5th string and is very soft and quick !!
I just thought this might be of interest to some players !!!

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Jerry Horner · Post by **Jerry Horner** » 14 Jul 2001 1:49 pm

Moon, at our age we like anything that pushes easy.

Jerry

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 14 Jul 2001 6:48 pm

Moon,

you are correct! The word "Pesky" suits it to a tea. It's like the ole saying,

"Damned if ya do and damned if ya don't" In this case having it or not having it.

In my own case, I never altered in my feeling that the dumb thing was in the way a lot of times. Can't strum, especially when ya lower them E's

Etc!!

That has ALL changed now. I had a theory for over 40 yrs. Never knew if it would be good or not. Just a theory.

"If I went to a 12 string universal with no D string. AND IF, I could raise that 9th string to a D like everybody else AND lower that 8th string to a D on separate knee levers on opposite knees, would it in fact solve the problem and in affect, have the best of all worlds?"

Well, I can tell you this. It may not be good for another soul on this planet. But for me it is the greatest thing I ever did. I cannot begin to tell you how many times it is just plain wonderful to play without that cotten pickin D in there ta mess you up.

Plus have it on the 9th string OR the 8th string at my option, if I want it!!

Tell you also a little secret I learned about that D note. There are two totally separate resolves going from a major chord to it's 7th chord. Never really realized it before.

1. Dropping the 8th string to Eb, THEN dropping it on down to a D.

verses,

2. Raising the 9th string B note to a C# THEN raising it on up to a D.

I had been hearing these 2 movements in my head for years. NOW I have the option AND pleasure of doing it either way.

Just one more reason why I would never even consider going back to a D-10. I am a U-12'r for the rest of my life.

Praise God for his many blessings, luv ya moon,

carl

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 14 Jul 2001 7:20 pm

Amen to that Carl!! Good thinking....al

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 14 Jul 2001 9:10 pm

Moon,
I have been "knocking" that idea around for some time now. I too use the C# note more than the D note. And, of late seem to find even more ways to use the C# note. Also, with all the talk about the extended E9th (like Buddy has been experimenting with/E13th?), I find it may even become the "norm" to switch to a C# and raise to the D. It might take a little getting used to just because of the "mind" thing and I might not be quite as "sponteneous" for awhile. But, now I know I'm not the only one to consider this. I think it would be a great idea to make this simple change. It would also ease my way towards the "inevitable 12 string" guitar I'm mulling over in my mind!
Moon, I totally agree with you and I think you may have given me the courage to make this change this week. Thanks!

Dave[This message was edited by Dave Robbins on 14 July 2001 at 10:15 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 15 Jul 2001 7:23 am

I use the D a lot more than I use the C#. In scale runs on the low strings I usually get the C# from the pedaled 10th string. In chords, I use the D as the root note for many of my 6ths and major 7ths/9ths. With the split on the 5th string, I'm also getting dominant 7ths and 9ths with the ninth string root (pedals A+B plus lever X).

I do use the C# for a minor 7th root, but I can't get C# major because the F lever is on the same knee, other direction on my guitars (I get the F lever's C# major root on the 10th string). I also use the the C# for pentatonic scales.

These are all standard techniques that you hear on records all the time. There aren't a lot of 6th chords in today's music. The modern trend is towards more "open" voicings like the sus4 and add9 chords.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
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Quesney Gibbs · Post by **Quesney Gibbs** » 16 Jul 2001 3:06 am

I use the D string quite a lot and could not do without it. It is part of several grips that use and I am sure if anyone takes the time to find out what it will do for you you will see why it's there.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 16 Jul 2001 6:28 am

Quesney wrote my reply verbatim. It's an important string in my music.

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Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 16 Jul 2001 10:11 am

I´m with Quesney and Herb. I use it quite a lot for what I call "pseudo-swing" as well as for blues and old-time country tunes. I think you´ll hear it a lot on many ´60s recordings as well. I just don´t like the idea of having to engage a lever every time I want to go to the "D" note (or whatever it is, depending on where you are on the neck). If others can get around it, that´s OK, but I´ll stick to my D string.
And, Moon, remember- Ralph Mooney uses it a WHOLE lot, it´s all over his recordings.

[This message was edited by Joe Henry on 16 July 2001 at 12:02 PM.]

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 16 Jul 2001 11:00 am

Hey Moon,
A week or so back I changed my tuning to an extended E9. I've been playing an E9/B6 Universal for over twenty years and I just finally decided it wasn't for me as I don't really like C6th much and am a big Ralph Mooney fan. My new tuning has a C# on strings 2 and 9 and I really like it. I'm a guitar player first and have always thought of steel from a guitar players standpoint so I've always tried to be able to play a lot of the same licks on steel. I like being able to pull the 5th string to a unison with the 2nd and the 10th to a unison with the 9th. I don't care about what's correct or not. I just like what works for me and I think most people are like that. What ever scale you want to play will be played no matter how your steel's tuned. I agree with b0b that the modern stuff is getting away from 6th chords and that's good. I'm going to try to get my new tuning on the forum sometime if I can figure out how to post the thing.............

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Have a good 'un! JH U-12

joe wright · Post by **joe wright** » 19 Jul 2001 6:59 am

Any string that is pesky is the result of bad technique. Tune it to D and lower to C# or vice versa. No matter what it does musically it is the physical aspect of having to be precise that makes things pesky...joe

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 19 Jul 2001 7:58 am

I agree with Joe.

Several guys tune the 2nd string to C# and raise it to D and D# with knee levers, rather than the usual lowering setup. I've agreed with all of the reasons I've heard for doing it that way if done for the player's individual stylistic choices... except the "it doesn't sound so much like a 'clam' when I accidentally hit it" excuse.

The solution is: improve your technique so as to not accidentally hit that string.

Imagine what we'd think of a piano player who removed a bunch of the ivory from his keyboard, saying "I never play in keys that use those notes, and I was always accidentally hitting them and it sounded bad."

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Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 19 Jul 2001 7:59 am

Ah, simplicity........If you're seriously trying to "copy" Mooney, begin with a C6 tuning, raising strings one and two (separatly with pedals one & two)and lowering string three(with pedal three)....and pump those suckers fast, with two feet if necessary. This gives you the original early Buck Owens sound....and in addition, playing strings two and three while depressing pedals two and three will also give you the original "split"......try it! www.genejones.com

Roger Edgington · Post by **Roger Edgington** » 20 Jul 2001 9:12 pm

I would be totally lost without the D string.

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 21 Jul 2001 7:53 am

I think "Moon's" idea is a good one. I've been thinking about it a long time. It doesn't mean you have to do away with the "D" note. It is still there, only the whole thing is just reversed. I couldn't live with out the "D" either, but I'm finding more and more uses for the "C#" in my chord work. There is more to life than just that dominant 7th sound. That C# is really useful with so many of my other pedal combinations. I find myself holding that "D"to C#" lever down more and more all the time. Try experimenting with the C# and I think you'll find an awful lot of stuff you can do with it. And, considering the possibility of my one day going to an extended E9th I find it even more advantageous to having the C# there than having the D for those C6 type things,such as chords "and" single string work. Check out Buddy's tuning on the new Carter.
I really think, for the direction I'm going, that the C# to D change, as opposed to the D to c#, change could have a deffinite place in my future. The nice thing about playing steel is it is so much fun "experimenting" with new ideas. Besides, if it don't work out, it can always be put back. I'm currently thinking of setting up one guitar with the standard D in the bottom, and setting the other up with the C# in the bottom, just to see how I will adapt. Like I was getting at, "experimenting" is half the fun!

Dave "Tune up and go get em!"

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 21 Jul 2001 9:32 am

"Imagine what we'd think of a piano player who removed a bunch of the ivory from his keyboard, saying "I never play in keys that use those notes, and I was always accidentally hitting them and it sounded bad."

Herb, luv ya like a brother man. I have to make this comment. Never yet saw a piano player strum as Guitar players and we steel guitar players do. Or at least some of us do.

With that D in there and the E's lowered, you "jes caint" strum dem strangs bubba

Cuz, if'n ya do, yo gonna be alooking fer anudder job, pronto!!

Love you man,

carl

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 21 Jul 2001 4:20 pm

Having that D-note available with the E's lowered makes room for some interesting licks. It wont sound "country" but if you are in the mood for "blues" the note is very nice to have excactly where it is(with the E's to Eb).

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 21 Jul 2001 8:41 pm

Carl, my words look a heckuva lot worse when they're in boldface, I'm here to tell ya!

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John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 24 Jul 2001 7:40 pm

Let's hear it for "strumming" the steel guitar. I just started doing it about a year ago on "Dream." comping all four beats and it's kinda fun. Specially if the guitar player's soloing.

One big advangtage to lowering string 8 to D is being able to play the opening riff to "I Feel Fine" by the Beatles and other cool country riffs. Sorta like that guitar player with Diamond Rio. If you're into that sorta thing. (Maybe I should hook it up to my 4th string.)

By the way, you can too strum with the D note, depending on the song. Consider "Stormy Monday" with its dom. 7 and 9 tones. You can get the signature T-Bone Walker riff. I can see it's utility on the E9 tuning, just never had it on any of my guitars. One advantage to not having it (I play S12U) is the ability to duplicate melodies you play on strings 3, 4 and 5 down an octave lower without having to skip over anything, you just move in a little.--JR

Dave Zirbel · Post by **Dave Zirbel** » 24 Jul 2001 8:15 pm

Hey Moon, I've been using that setup for the last 4 years. C# on the 9th string and no A pedal on the 10th string. I raise the C# to a D with the same lever that lowers the Eb 2nd string to a D(LKR). What do you tune your 10th string at? I kept mine at B.

Dave Z in California

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 25 Jul 2001 3:09 am

Please don't call it "strumming". Until recently, I NEVER heard this word used to describe picking chords on the steel. I don't know what it's called. It's similar to how jazz players play chords on guitar (comping?), and I never heard THAT called strumming. If you sweep your thumb pick back and forth rhythmically on the strings as you would when strumming the guitar, for the express purpose of creating rhythm, then you could call it "strumming". But I don't think anyone is doing that. Perhaps someone out there could tell us what it's called?

Jeremy Steele · Post by **Jeremy Steele** » 25 Jul 2001 4:39 am

"Thrumming"?

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 25 Jul 2001 5:39 pm

OK,Thumming. The idea is to sound 6-8 notes at a time and give a little rhythmic drive. For me, it's a case of piano envy. (pianist envy?)

JR

Moon in Alaska · Post by **Moon in Alaska** » 25 Jul 2001 8:15 pm

Yes, Dave, My 10th string is tuned to B. I have never thought of combining the 9th string move with the 2nd string lower ---- I might try that !!!
Also, my website evaporated from angelfire, but I have updated it so it works again.

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<< Moon Mullin in Alaska >>
==Carter S-10==
<< Old Fender-400 >>
== Evans FET 500 Custom LV ==
Click HERE for Moon's Home Page

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 27 Jul 2001 2:50 am

After re-reading Moon's post and Joe Wright's response, it seems the issue questions whether one should compromise comfortable, spontaneous playing for an uncomfortable, but more precise style.
I wonder if we're destined to each learn a certain way, acheiving a level
of skill and technique according to our unique character.
If we've arrived at a comfort zone and can play freely and competently, should we jeopardize that spontaneity with "pesky" new changes?!