Switching a guitar from Day to Emmons

Nicholas Dedring · Post by **Nicholas Dedring** » 9 Dec 2003 10:17 am

How hard would this be to do for an idiot?

Meaning me.

I haven't gotten into tinkering underneath the guitar... looking at a single neck Fessenden that is set up Day, and I'd change it around if I decide to throw caution and finance to the wind. Anyone have a guess about what the time commitment would be?

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 9 Dec 2003 11:12 am

You would have to move the 2 bellcranks on the now "C" pedal to the "A" pedal positions for the 5th & 10th strings and move the 2 bellcranks on the now "A" pedal to the "C" pedal positions for the 4th & 5th strings, put the rods back in place and tune it up.
Should take you about an hour, most of which would be taken up making a chart of which holes on the changer fingers & bellcranks the rods are now in so you can put them back in the right places. I swapped the changes on my RKL & RKR on my Fessy and had the whole thing done and was back playing her in about 45 min's.
JE:-)>[This message was edited by Jim Eaton on 09 December 2003 at 11:14 AM.]

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 9 Dec 2003 11:34 am

Be aware that the left knee levers may need swapping around, in addition to the pedals.

Nicholas Dedring · Post by **Nicholas Dedring** » 9 Dec 2003 11:37 am

How much, if at all, do you need to tinker with the set screws for the pedal stops and other stuff? B pedal will obviously stay in the same place... the levers for the E's will need to be put in the appropriate places as well... do Fessy's have the adjustable pedal travel stops?

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 9 Dec 2003 12:21 pm

Fessies have adjustable travel stops, which are the black cap screws at the crossbar flange that the pedal rod hooks to. Adjusting this screw will change the angle of the bellcranks on the crossbar, and change the leverages slightly.

If you say you're totally inexperienced with working on the undercarriage of a steel, you can A) look upon the self-performed changeover as a learning experience with the risk of not doing it correctly and having the action of the guitar changed, B) have an experienced steel mechanic do the job, and call you when it's done, or C) have an experienced mechanic do the job with you looking over his shoulder and asking questions.

The job should take about an hour, depending on how many cups of coffee and cigarettes it requires.

It's not at all difficult, but it involves re-rodding the E9 neck and getting the correct pedal travel and nylon tuning nut replacement. This means determining what holes in the changer finger are correct as well as what slots on the bellcranks the rods fit. It could be challenging (read: time consuming) for a neophyte, but nothing like an Emmons PP.

Until more experience is obtained, I'd suggest you go for Option C.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association
[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 09 December 2003 at 12:24 PM.]

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 9 Dec 2003 12:44 pm

Jim Eaton...do you mean change the cranks from the C shaft to the A shaft and from the A shaft to the C shaft or reposition the cranks on the shafts and change the rods?

Aren't the cranks all the same length and have the same amount of holes?

Bob

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 9 Dec 2003 1:25 pm

What I ment was both pedals have 2 pulls and all you have to do is "move one bellcrank per pedal" to the correct alignment for the new changes and put the rods back in.
Pedal #1 in the Day set-up would have the bellcranks aligned for the 4th & 5th strings and with the 4th string rod out of the guitar, loosen the set screw on the bellcrank on the 4th string, slip it off the cross shaft, put it back on the cross shaft for the 10th string put the rod back in the Bellcrank and "Shazam" you Day "C" pedal is now your "Emmons" "A" pedal.
Pedal #3 in "Day" is the "A" pedal would now need the bellcrank now used on the 10th string moved to the 4th string spot,take the 10th string rod out - move the bellcrank, put the rod back on and you "Day" "A" pedal just became your "Emmons" "C" pedal. Your just moving one change per pedal since both A&C pull the 5th B-C#. Same drill for moving the KL's too! But as I said in my first post "MAKE A CHART OF WHAT HOLES AT THE CHANGER AND BELLCRANKS ARE USED ON EVERYTHING "BEFORE" YOU TAKE ANYTHING LOOSE!!!!!!!!!!!
Stand the guitar on end with the changer end up, take the right rear leg off for some working room and let gravity help you with the bellcrank allignment. Before you hook the rod to the bellcrank, make sure it hangs straight down from the changer and is centered in the bellcrank.
If you can use a screwdriver with out injury to your self or an innocent bystander, you should be able to do this just fine, take you time and oh yea, did I mention "MAKE A CHART"?
JE:-)>

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 9 Dec 2003 1:29 pm

If you do go ahead and change the copedant, do it with the steel in the case, as this minimises damage to the tops of the changer fingers. One thing that I hate seeing is pictures of steels upside down on a carpet. All that work 'restoring' a steel, then potentially causing terrible damage to the most important feature of a PSG, the changer.

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 11 Dec 2003 1:04 pm

Stick with the Day set-up. It's far more comfortable on the ankle.

David Friedlander · Post by **David Friedlander** » 11 Dec 2003 5:44 pm

Nicholas- step away from the guitar- don't touch a thing.
In New York City, Jimmy Day is THE way to play the PSG!

Billy Easton · Post by **Billy Easton** » 11 Dec 2003 6:07 pm

Right on David....it is the way in Arizona as well!!

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Billy Easton
Casa Grande, AZ
Southwestern Steel Guitar Association

Nicholas Dedring · Post by **Nicholas Dedring** » 11 Dec 2003 6:26 pm

Well, it's in the realm of the hypothetical at the moment. Still haven't gone and seen the guitar. I haven't touched the one that I have, because it was delivered with a recently rebuilt and tweaked undercarriage. I figured I couldn't do anything but make it worse... and there was nothing to serve as a backup to it if I made a BIG mistake

With this, and with the absence of loads of pro mechanic kind of folks here (shocking, I know), this seemed like a good potential learning experience. Somebody here in brooklyn was kind enough to offer help, or fix my mistakes once I've made them, so if I get this as a backup/lighter instrument, I think I can get to making it work... famous last words(?)

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 11 Dec 2003 7:16 pm

With all due respect to my forum colleagues advocating the Day setup as the "right" way to play:

Please. Get real. The man asked what is involved in changing over a pedal setup on a Fessenden. Neither the players who play the Emmons setup nor players who use the Day setup have a monopoly on the "right" way to play.

What comes out of your amplifier determines what is the "right" way to play, not which direction your ankle turns, or what knee levers do what, or in what part of the country you live.

FWIW, the original post implies Nicholas is already using the Emmons setup on his current guitar. So would y'all be advocating not only changing over his current setup... involving the same procedure as changing over the Fessenden..., but also relearning the new setup and reprogramming his muscle memory to play "Day" style?

And if so, why?

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 11 December 2003 at 07:20 PM.]

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 11 Dec 2003 9:26 pm

Herb,
I think those guys was just foolin' with all that "right" way to play talk.

But from a historical standpoint, Day is the original way to have split pedals, since that's how they came from Bigsby, as early as '54.

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 11 Dec 2003 9:33 pm

If you want to "change sides", I recommend tuning your C pedal so that it only moves the 5th string, and leaves the 4th string stationary. That way, your setup goes from A B C to pretty much A B A. This way, you can experiment with Day, and still have your Emmons style for safety's sake.

Then if you decide you prefer Day, have it changed to C B A. And if you don't like the Day set up, just tune the pedal back to where it pulls the 4th string.

All you loose in your "experimental period" is you C pedal, but you can usually get by without it, if you work at it.

Chris Scruggs

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 12 Dec 2003 6:34 am

"But from a historical standpoint, Day is the original way to have split pedals, since that's how they came from Bigsby, as early as '54."

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Oh really?

I suggest you do a search on this forum and see what Buddy Emmons has to say about which was first. The following ARE the facts.

Buddy Emmons split Bud Isaacs' lone pedal into A and B. NOT B and A. Later; AFTER Buddy told Jimmy Day about it on the phone, JD split it into B and A.

As Buddy said on this forum, "it does not matter what (someone) says or how many times they say it, the facts remain the same."

Also, while there IS indeed merit to the way the ankle turns; and it is a fact that some players do still use and request the JD setup; it is also fact that MOST of the guitars are the BE setup; and if you talk with the manufacturers, it is moving more and more towards the BE setup; as most guitars now shipped are indeed the BE setup.

carl

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 12 Dec 2003 7:25 am

I can see the advantages of the JD setup for a single neck or a Universal, where the pedals are toward the middle of the guitar. My double necks have nine or ten pedals, which necessitates moving the E9 pedals as far left as they will go. Since my left ankle is already at an angle to make that stretch, the BE setup makes more sense for me.

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@comcast.net
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden D-12 9&9=-
-=Emmons D-12 push pull 9&4 (soon to be 9&9)=-
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