IF you tune straight up...

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 12 Sep 2003 9:34 am

Please, I am not trying to start another ET/JI debacle.

But I am interested in how those who tune straight up (440 reference) do it.

In other words, do you use a tuner solely? Do you have so-called "perfect pitch"? Do you tune it using the way all beginning guitar books say to do it, IE, duplicate the sound of a given string at a given fret with another given string at a given fret?

Or do you have some other way you do it?

JUST the ET folk please. Thanks in advance.

carl

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 12 Sep 2003 10:49 am

I've got into the habit of raising as many strings as possible when tuning, to put the steel under maximum string pressure, ie when tuning string 7 I'll raise 4 5 6 8 and 10. When the raises are released, sure, string 7 goes up a tad, but in my opinion a sharp string sounds better than a flat string. If the 4th string is tuned with no raises applied, it will be flat when pedals A and B are pressed, and sound terrible. If it is tuned with A and B pressed, it will be sharp when no pedals are used, but it will sound acceptable (IMHO).

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 12 Sep 2003 12:41 pm

Having an extendend E9 (12 strings) and 7peds + 7 levers I have found that it is easier to make everything sound in tune using ET. My open G# is tuned sligthly flat from the ET but that is all.
What bothered me the most was that pressing the Apedal did not sound at all to me like a full tone raise when tuning JT and I use the Aped move a lot together w the 7th (F#) string. The compromise whas that triad and 4note voicings are not completely beatless but I can live with that. All the other knee-levers and pedals sound in tune together. Tuning everything almost ET means I have to slightly slant or press nose of bar down or press back end of bar down to get 3 string or more to sound perfectly in tune (JT). Having played guitar for 25 years (and also played keyboards/piano for 15 years) my ears have become used to hearing ET and once I starteds playing PSG (ability to play JT) I noticed how much it differs from ET. On a regular guitar I am actually aware of this difference and slightly bend a string or two within a chord to make it sound more in tune. Comes from years of practise, not even aware that I do it if I don't stop and analyze how my fingers frets the neck. So when pressing a pedal or lever I already know beforehand how the note is supposed to sound like and tuning almost everything to ET solved most of the problems.
I just have to be careful when playing 3 or 4note voicings. On the other hand I would even tune the 6 strings on a regular guitar different for each chord to make them sound more like JT if I could record lots of tracks and make all the rhythm parts sound fluid like if the where to be recorded in one take. With a whole lot of peds and knee-levers I belive approximating ET is the way to go. Interval playing will not be a problem but there are some compromises to 3 and 4 note chords.

Bengt Erlandsen
ZumSteel E9ext 7+7 & other stringed instruments[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 12 September 2003 at 01:45 PM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 12 Sep 2003 1:10 pm

Yes, but I want to know HOW you get it tuned to ET.

I am not asking who tunes ET or JI; or why; or the virtues of one over the other.

I beleive I may have confused you. I want to know in detail how you get all the strings and pedal/knee lever changes tuned to ET; since you do not have the luxury of tuning the beats out like JI provides.

Do you rely solely on a tuner; or are your ears sooo good that you can hear ET like most of us instinctively hear JI; or do you use some other tuning method?

Thanks,

carl

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 12 Sep 2003 1:20 pm

In my case, it is almost always done by ear except for the open E which I check with a tuner (440)
After that I place my bar on 8th fret and tune all the E's then all the B's then all F#'s then all G#'s then all pedA then all pedB and so on and then check every string(ped-change) to sound ok as a C scale, then I compare intervals along the strings with those across the strings and make fine adjustments but afterwards when I check with my tuner(sabine GT1500) everything seems to be ET.
I have to get myself a Peterson strobe tuner to see how much my strings/peds/levers are out of the equal temperment. Then I can print the exact amount of cent every string differs from ET.
(But tuning ET don't mean that I always play all notes ET. it just makes all pedals (interval) movements sound correct to me)

Bengt[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 12 September 2003 at 02:52 PM.][This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 12 September 2003 at 02:53 PM.]

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 12 Sep 2003 1:44 pm

If I was supposed to sing or whistle a Cmajor scale without a reference note it would 99% be a ET tuned scale. But if someone sings a Cnote along with me, chances are that I would adjust the 3rd to JT because it sounds much better and that causes me a lot of trouble(because now I know the regular 6string is terrible out of tune when playing different chords). The PSG has made me become more aware of JT within chords than I was before but on the other hand I can hear/recognize harmonies more clearly than I did before.[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 12 September 2003 at 02:50 PM.]

Bill Cunningham · Post by **Bill Cunningham** » 12 Sep 2003 2:00 pm

I have used the Newman chart for years. Last month when I opened for Ray Price I had the pleasure of spending a good amount of time with Danny Mohammed. He insisted that I have to try ET. Now, I am tuning everything straight up on the tuner then lowering the thirds just until my ears can stand it in the triad. It's gonna take a while to get used to this (if at all).

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"Gimme a steel guitar, 2 or 3 fiddles and a Texas rhythm section that can swing"..W. Nelson

Marco Schouten · Post by **Marco Schouten** » 12 Sep 2003 2:05 pm

Hi Carl,

I use a tuner to tune the open strings to 440.
The 2 G# strings by ear (about -8 cents).
All pedals and knee levers by ear.

------------------
Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud LLG; Guyatone 6 string lap steel; John Pearse bar; Emmons bar; Evans SE200 amp

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 12 Sep 2003 2:20 pm

Sorry, not interested in anything but straight up 440 and HOW one does it. IF you flatten your thirds, that is for another thread. Not to be disrespectful, this thread is NOT for anything but straight up 440. That is; all strings 440; and all pedal and knee lever changes to 440.

My question again is, if you do the above, how do you get them all to 440? Do you use your ears, do you use a tuner? Or how do you know when ALL strings and all changes are straight up 440 since you no longer have the benefit of "tuning the beats out"?

Thanks again,

carl

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 12 Sep 2003 2:32 pm

If I tuned everything straight up (which I do on C6 but still can't stand on E9), I'd have to use a tuner. I would have trouble hearing (and remembering how many) beats each interval should have for ET. I guess I could tune the octaves to each other, but since I'd already be using the tuner for other strings, I'd just use the tuner for everything. Then I'd check the octaves audibly to be sure everything matched.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 12 Sep 2003 2:48 pm

To answer your question.....To start, I tune everything straight up to 440 with the tuner, and then correct everything by ear until it sounds in tune.

www.genejones.com

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 12 Sep 2003 4:32 pm

Gene must have learned from me or vice versa. I, too, tune straight up 440 with a $19.95 no-name tuner from Musician's Friend -- then "Tweak" everything by ear until it sounds right. I figure that if it sounds in tune, it must be in tune.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 12 Sep 2003 5:25 pm

When I did tune every single thing straight up, I used a Conn strobe tuner.
This was from about '79-81.

Doug Rolfe · Post by **Doug Rolfe** » 12 Sep 2003 5:35 pm

Carl, I tune straight up using a Korg tuner.

------------------
Doug
Dekley 12U 4k & 7p
2-Nash 400 & Quadraverb
[This message was edited by Doug Rolfe on 12 September 2003 at 06:35 PM.]

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 12 Sep 2003 6:21 pm

If you include the steel guitar in with the other tempered instruments then there is no way you can tune EVERY note straight up on your tuner and be in tune.

They quit doing that about 200 years ago when the organs and clavichords that were tuned to perfect intervals would only play in tune in a very limited group of keys. Enter JS Bach and others to "temper" the tunings of certain intervals to allow the instrument to be decently in tune and play in all the major and minor keys.

Really all you have to do is just temper the major thirds until they suit you. It is after all a guitar---it does not play perfectly in tune-only close.

If there was a way to compensate individual string length on the PSG would that come into play for better tuning???

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 12 Sep 2003 7:07 pm

Bill what you said,

May or may not be the case, but that is NOT what this thread is all about. This thread is not about the virtues of JI versus ET or who tunes to JI or ET or somewhere in between; or why.

Very respectfully, I once again will ask that this thread be restricted to how a person tunes IF, that person tunes all strings, pedal and knee lever changes to ET?

In other words:

Do you use a tuner?

Do you use your ears?

Do you use a tuner and your ears?

Do you use some other method of tuning straight ET?

Etc?

I sincerely need this information for a project I am doing. That is the reason for this thread.

Thanks in advance for telling us how YOU tune your guitar, IF, you tune everything to straight up 440 (ref). If you tune JI or any where between JI and ET, that is for another time and another thread.

God bless you all,

carl

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 12 Sep 2003 9:07 pm

Carl,in order for me to tune ET I have to use a tuner.If I tune by ear it's very close to the Newman chart.The exception would be the E9 on my Legrande III. I tune the C6th on all my guitars ET.I've found it works better with the band.especially with a slightly out tune band,or big band.6 pieces or more.
If I tune MY LIII by ear it comes out somewhere between ET and the Newman chart. Hope this helps.---------bb

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 12 Sep 2003 10:16 pm

Yes Carl....a tuner. My ears play tricks on me.

Bob Kononiuk · Post by **Bob Kononiuk** » 12 Sep 2003 10:42 pm

I am sorry, but I can not read this thread any longer without knowing what ET and JI mean.

I'm a newbie here and I want to learn all I can.

Thanks

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Bob Kononiuk
______________
Carter SD-10
Nashville 112

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 12 Sep 2003 11:23 pm

Straight up korg inline tuner. Ear for beats in octaves unless it is't perfect by the tuner.

Really hard to ear it with other stuff going on.

I can come in the room whistling an E and it's about perfect on my tuner, or restring a guitar and adjust it up after the strings slack without one, and it's usually damn close.

Nothing's perfect.

I guess mine's called "acquired" if it's close. I lose it if I'm not playing all te time.

My wife's got perfect bit<h.....

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 13 September 2003 at 12:27 AM.]

Bill Stafford · Post by **Bill Stafford** » 13 Sep 2003 2:26 am

Hi Carl, nice visiting with you in St. Louis. I am impressed with all you have done.
Response to your tuning question:
1- I use a tuner
2- I tune all stings open to the A-440 ref.
3- I tune all pedals and knee lever notes to the same ref.
4- My fourteenth string (080 ga) E note is originally tuned to this ref freq. Being that it is four octaves under the first E string it tends to go sharp just a bit with bar pressure. So I just flatten it a bit (high tech term there-lol) to have it be in tune with the bar on the strings. Being that it is such a low frequency, does not give me any "out of tune notes" when used in the open E configuration of this tuning. And as the bar increases the frequency when moved up the freet board, the string is then in tune with the chords resting above this note.
As you well know, as frequency increases, your ear will detect the out of tune note more rapidly if it is not lowered "a bit" from the ref..Works for me..

BS

Doug Rolfe · Post by **Doug Rolfe** » 13 Sep 2003 4:33 am

Carl, I too want to compliment you on your efforts to give us new and innovative technology in the pedal steel world. I love it.
Bill Stafford was the first person I heard who tuned straight up and I said I want that sound. (none sweeter IMHO)
The music store where I bought my steel told me that I would absolutely need a tuner as my ears would play tricks on me if I was going to tune straight up.
I hope that this helps.

------------------
Doug
Dekley 12U 4k & 7p
2-Nash 400 & Quadraverb

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 13 Sep 2003 4:54 am

"I am sorry, but I can not read this thread any longer without knowing what ET and JI mean.
I'm a newbie here and I want to learn all I can."

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Bob,

Here's the scoop.

ET = Equal temperament

JI = Just intonation

Now what do these to phrases mean?

ET means that each note is separated by the same mathematical space. IE, in our 12 semi-tone system of music, all 12 notes are equally spaced based on a logarithmic formula.

Thus the name equal temperament. With minor exception, pianos, organs and all fretted instruments are mostly tuned to ET.

Just Intonation shifts certain notes away from equal spacing. And the amount of shift is not consistent. IE, in the case of C E G (Key of C), the G note is sharpened just slightly. But the E note is flattened widely from 440 reference (standard concert pitch).

The reason for this is; most human ears do NOT like to hear "beats" between any two notes when it comes to music. Beats mean a warble like sound generated IN the ears, when any two notes are NOT harmonically "just"; or "perfect" as in the phrase "a perfect fifth".

Ever since our 12 semi-tone system was created, there has been an unending battle as to how to deal with this anamoly. Mathematicss and science tend to dictate we use ET. Sound perception in the human ear tends to dictate JI.

The battle will never end. And there are volumes and volumes and an infinite amount of rhetoric that has been expended to try and prove all kinds of thesis on the subject.

Plus, you have those that insist one is correct in deference to the other.

A piano tuner has little choice. A fretted instrument player has little choice. However, fretless instruments and instruments like trombones are not limited in their ability to shift tones from a straight ET based tuning.

In comes our beloved steel guitar. And it opens up a pandoras box of arguments pro anc con for ET versus JI or somewhere in between BECAUSE it can shift ANY note up or down almost infinitely! When playing with other instruments this can lead to mucho chaos.

I refuse to argue the point any longer. Simply because it is a case in futility. However in my heart, I KNOW ET has, and always will be correct, regardless of all the arguments in favor of JI.

Strangely I do NOT tune ET. I tune mostly straight JI. There are a few places I tune ET. BUT there ARE players who do tune STRAIGHT up 440. I mean; ALL strings and ALL changes on their PSG's are tuned straight up 440. My precious friend Bill Stafford is one of them. And I love to hear him play!

Weldon Myrik tuned JI for 40 yrs and so did Buddy Emmons. Both now tune almost totally ET. Why?

I could go on forever, but hopefully, the above will give you some idea of what is going on.

May Jesus bless you in your quests,

carl

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 13 Sep 2003 5:40 am

I tune "straight up" using a tuner on PSG. This allows for least difference re keyboards when playing chords.

By "straight up" here is meant that all strings/pedals/levers are tuned to as close to "no cents" difference from the 12th root of 2 scale. This scale may start from any reference frequency (440 Hz, 441 Hz, 261.5 Hz, or where the keyboard is tuned).

I don't believe that Science and math "dictate" anything, they just provide descriptions of things to facilitate understanding and communication, ..some people use these descriptions to try and "dictate" their ideas to others.

I don't believe that the 12 tone scale was "created", ..it evolved. Our choices in harmonies have become more complex as time has passed. All of the "needed" frequency ratios for 12, 24, etc. tone scales are provided in a single vibrating open cord = string in our case.

Carl, you will like this, ..God does/did the CREATING, ..man just chooses and arranges. That makes up for using the word "evolved".

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 13 Sep 2003 5:46 am

Carl,

How do you tune your 1st, 7th ,4th and 5th strings on the E9 neck ? With pedals down or up ?

Also if you tune open straight up and then you put the bar on the strings around the 10th and 18th fret the tuning is no longer straight up.

Bob