Interchangeable changers?

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 14 Sep 2003 1:06 pm

Are changers more or less interchangeable? I have a 12 string Remington that has the unsupported changer which has all of the fingers on a solid rod. I notice that the newer Remington as well as most of the other newer steel guitars use changers that are supported between each finger. I don't know the ins or outs of the issue but it appears that the totally supported changers have better contact with the neck (and perhaps better tone and sustain). Do any of you guitar mechanics have opinions on this issue?

Karlis

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 14 Sep 2003 1:30 pm

Changers are rarely, if ever, interchangable.

Supporting the changer between each finger has been tried by a number of manufacturers and models.

Sho-Bud, Emmons and Sierra have done it. I believe the Fender PSG's did it. Not sure. Not all Emmons have changers that are supported between each finger. Sierra's have never done it any other way.

I believe, but not sure, that Sho-Bud did and and didnt on given models. Emmons did it ONLY on their very first LeGrande models. I do not know of any others that have done it.

Carter's kinda comes in between in this scenario; in that they do put some extra "ribs" between given fingers.

My personal opinion is; on the ultimate PSG, the changer would be supported between each finger. I see no reason why this should NOT be a requirement, if one wanted the ultimate.

That axle HAS to give, more or less, due to the stresses of raises and lowers when it is not supported between each finger. So regardless, I feel it can only make an otherwise good changer, better.

Ron Lashley said their changer, that was supported between each finger, did not help one bit on the old "cabinet drop" problem. I find this one of the hardest things to believe I have ever heard. But since I have no proof otherwise, I will have to assume he was correct.

carl

Bill Ford · Post by **Bill Ford** » 14 Sep 2003 5:56 pm

the early MSA had a support web between the changers,also Marlin.

BF

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Bill Ford

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 14 Sep 2003 7:47 pm

as well as EMCI

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 14 Sep 2003 8:15 pm

WEll the problem is you can't really support the axle totally; if in fact it's a axle(solid steel round bar)> because even if you have supports between each finger for that axle; how do you get it in there...if it's really supported totally???
You can't.
So in order to get the axle in...that axle has to be just a smidge smaller than the support holes.....and hence the prob....>it still has a smidge to move/bend/flex..whatever.
But the best NON-dropping axles I've come across...are the supported between each finger shobuds....where I had to almost POUND that axle to get it in there...
Ricky

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 15 Sep 2003 4:21 am

Practically any Steel can be adapted to a solid rod changer. Most guitars built today have single shafts. I mainly use 5/8 shaft. I have adapted hundreds of guitars to this system with litterly no problems. Changing a Sho-Bud to a single shaft and Aluminum neck is very simple. I deal with people almost daily that are updating their old Steel. Ed Naylor Steel Guitar Works

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 15 Sep 2003 4:47 am

Ed, my dear friend,

What is a "solid" rod changer?

Are there hollow axle rods out there? Or am I missing something?

Thanks.

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Ricky,

With much admiration to you, and much respect, I must disagree about the "play" in the supports around axles. Since the pull on all strings is always in the same direction, IE, left to right, that "play" in essence does not exist in a PSG changer.

This is because all of the pounds of force of pull (whether raising or lowering) is forcing that rod to exert ALL pressure against any supporting structure, towards the right end of the changer.

So, given two scenarios; an axle that was only supported at each end; and an axle that was supported between each finger; the latter would be virtually against a rock solid wall at all times; as opossed to the axle only supported on each end; causing it to flex with raises and/or lowers.

My thoughts at least,

May Jesus richly bless both you gentlemen,

carl

Rainer Hackstaette · Post by **Rainer Hackstaette** » 15 Sep 2003 6:11 am

Karlis,

get in touch with Herb Remington by phone or email. He'll be glad to tell you everything about the old and new changer on his guitar.
http://www.remingtonsteelguitars.com/
email: remsteel@homerelay.net
713-923-8435 phone
713-923-4102 FAX

About two years ago I asked him, if I could exchange the changers on my '92 D-10 for the 2000 changers with the individual supports. He said there would be too much routing to be done to the body, endplate, and necks to warrant the expense.

Talk to Herb, he'll explain it a lot better than I can.

Rainer

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Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '76 Emmons D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 15 Sep 2003 7:56 am

Yes I agree with you Carl; as when you put the pressure on the axle, that it is supported very well throughout each finger...But there is a difference in the pressure when there is no change being actuated and when a change is being actuated....and that is the small amount of movement I'm talking about.
I am mainly talking about the ShoBud...and all the shobuds I've seen had a single solid axle w/supported between each finger.
Ricky

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 15 Sep 2003 8:10 am

Carl-The 'Solid Rod" is basically 4" long with a support on each end. Most fingers are 1/4" with a1/16" raise finger and a thin nylon spacer. This totals out to about .330 string spacing.The old "Push Pull" used a 9/16 rod. The old Sho-Bud "Finger Tipper" used a solid rod. The newer changers with supports used a 5/16 rod. No matter how it was made, bottom line- DOES IT WORK. ED

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 15 Sep 2003 11:47 am

I took a piece of polished 9/16 drill rod mounted in Emmons bolt-on pillars, hooked up ten strings the same size used on my Emmons, the nut was located to create a scale that was about 24.25 inches. The "body was made of heavy extruded aluminum channel. I fabricated some basic pulls the old fashioned way (hooks between the nut and tuning post that simply stretch strings by pulling down.) The axle with strings tuned to pitch was straight according to my dial indicator.
When string pulls were activated by hand, the axle, supported only at the ends, still read straight.
Chris Lucker

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 15 Sep 2003 12:17 pm

There is less friction on a smaller diameter axle: that's why they're used, and that's why supports are required on steels with these axles.
Ricky; I know what your saying, but think it out: as soon as the string is tuned up, the axle will be tight up against the supports.

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 15 Sep 2003 1:22 pm

As I said earlier- All the early Sho-Buds had the single axle without the supports.They had wider fingers 3/8inch thick. They started the supports with the 'Rack and Barrel" model.Some of the best sounding Sho-Buds were the finger tippers. I have Jeff Newmans old D12 fingertipper that is on the cover of the Sho-Bud catalog. Ed

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 15 Sep 2003 1:34 pm

Richard Good point. The only thing I can figure is that it is indeed how tight that axle is because of this>
I have restored/worked on many many Shobuds now.....and I have had two Absolutely identical guitars...meaning the exact same setup..same EVERYTHING...but one was red front and one was orange front...
Ok one of them I had to pound the axle in and the other was just slide the axle in normally.....>well the one that I had to pound had Zero drop...and the other had the regular 2 cent drop.....>so that is my theory...as there has got to be some(although probably a 1/1000") very very small room in there for that normal axle to move/flex, when pulled on...
Ed...I'm sorry...your right pal(of course you are; you've seen alot more than I)...I don't ever get any fingertips or permenants in here..so I forgot...how those axles were set....Amen.
Ricky

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 15 Sep 2003 2:20 pm

Chris,

I find your experiment very interesting. Thanks for sharing it with us. Let me expound on this a moment.

After years of studying the phenomenon of so-called "cabinet drop", I have come to the conclusion that the instrument just about all machine shops use for checking finite accuracy is just NOT sufficient.

Let me explain. If you take a nylon tuner say on an Emmons Legrande, it has a 4-40 thread in it. This means for one revolution it moves the pull rod exactly 1/40th of and inch. That is 25 thousands of an inch.

Now, if you divide this into 40 segments and you rotate the nylon tuner just one segment you are moving the pull rod less than 1000th of an inch!

Now, consider this, if the pull rod is in the bottom hole of a given changer finger, this means that at the circumference of the axle rod (say a 9/16 axle) the amount of movement in the above example, is incredibly less than 1000th of an inch!

Therefore, I have concluded that we simply are suffering from a movement SOOOO small that when considering cabinet drop, NOT even a dial indicator is adaquate; when it comes to trying to determine its cause.

To further add impetus to this anamoly, I have experienced the following, and I am sure you have too.

With a tuner hooked up and picking the 6th string on E9th, JUST barely and I mean barely rotating that string's nylon tuner (G# to A pull) can make the needle move several cents.

Based on this, I am saying; and believe with all my heart; that it is impossible with standard measuring equipment to say with any degree of assurance; that the axle IS, or is NOT flexing, based on the above.

Your thoughts would be sincerely appreciated,

carl

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 15 Sep 2003 3:04 pm

Carl,
The less than a 1000th of an inch you mention is a lot. The tippet material I was using flyfishing this weekend mic's out at 0.0021". After you get used to it, you can see a movement of a thousandth on an inch on a surface grinder or lathe.
My Mahr dial indicator that I used in by seat-of-the-pants test measures to 0.0005", or one half a thousandth. I could have used my buddy's even fancier Mahr that measures to 0.00005 or half a 10,000th, but I thought that would be overkill.
By the way, the strings were mounted through the drill rod below center leaving the center of the rod surface clear for the dial indicator tip to register.
I have never tested the theory, but I think it is easier to bend an Emmons body with downward pressure than it is to flex that short piece of drillrod.
But I know I miss frets or have my bar off parallel by more than my electronic tuner will measure any cabinet drop, so I have other more manageable pilot error issues to deal with before I get around to dealing with cabinet drop.
By the way, I did my test only because I was making some replacement Emmons axles, had a loose keyhead and a spare set of pillars and cast shorty neck insert for a wood neck bolton. I already had a piece of aluminum extrusion with a parallel traveller, or follower that I had used for following a template multiplier for another application.
I know I am not going to find any solution to cabinet drop, so I don't worry about it.
Chris

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 16 Sep 2003 4:50 am

I get amused at all this "Precision" about guitars. 99 and 9/10 percent of the audience hearing you play have no idea what a tuner is.Just think- on a Steel you are only in tune open. NOBODY can precisely put the bar over a fret exactly the same every time. Also bar "Roll" can cause you to be off a couple cents. Perfect tune a guitar and have 3 more check it out and they will change it. No two ears are the same . Ed Naylor Steel Guitar Works

Karlis Abolins · Post by **Karlis Abolins** » 16 Sep 2003 9:16 am

Do the changers, which have webs between each changer finger, have better tone and sustain? I am getting the sense that this is true.
The discussion has devolved into one about cabinet drop. I am willing to live with and adjust for cabinet drop since it appears on most guitars provided it is within tolerable range.
On my older Remington I have the changer without webs between each changer. It is supported only on the ends. I get a lot of sympathetic vibration between strings when I go above the 12th fret. It is clearly audible when I play without the amp turned off. The sustain is also lacking in the same area.
What I am interested in is a new changer with the webs. I guess that hoping that some of the manufacturers used the same changer dimensions is a waste of time. I may have to have a local machinist make one for me and use my existing changer fingers.

Karlis[This message was edited by Karlis Abolins on 16 September 2003 at 10:17 AM.]