Most needed skills for improvising?

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 2 Sep 2003 7:15 am

What do you think are the most important things to practise in order to be able to play improvised solos? Being able to hear and hold intervals in your head, stack scale fragments and interpolations, or learning other people's licks to develope technique and then rearranging them into something (hopefully) creative? And other stuff... I realize it's a big question and there are some chicken/egg aspects, but obviously what I choose to practice is what I'm going to get better at, and soloing seems to run the whole gamut from people "improvising" exactly the same things from patterns night after night to really winging it based on scales and intervals.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 2 Sep 2003 8:00 am

I realize it's a big question

That's an understatement. Here's some ideas often discussed on various musical forums on what to work on to improve your improvisation. Please keep in mind that I don't endorse any one thing over the other. This is just a list of ideas that are often mentioned. No one does all these things completely. Each player picks the combination of things to do that makes sense to them. One player may be all scales and theory. Someone else may do a lot of transcription and not much theory. Someone else listens to every saxophone player they can, and focuses on playing the blues in any key. You will over time pick the combination of ideas and approaches that work best for you.

1. Know intervals.
2. Know scales and modes.
3. Work on technique.
4. Listen to all genres and styles of music
5. Practice to all types of chord progressions.
6. Make up your own progressions and practice to them.
7. Make up melodies in your head and play them.
8. Practice the same thing in all 12 keys.
9. Practice forms (eg. 1/2 tone under, full tone over, target note)
10. Listen to OTHER instruments (horn players, piano, singer) and copy what they do.
11. Learn theory.
12. Transcribe solos and licks.
13. Buy transciption books of instrumentalists you like.
14. Practice the rhythm (eg. swinging your notes)
15. Learn note pockets.
16. Learn to arpeggiate.
17. Learn chord forms.

etc. etc. etc.

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Jeff's Jazz

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 02 September 2003 at 09:11 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 Sep 2003 8:13 am

I think you need to know your guitar well enough to find the melody of any song. Once you know where the melody is, you can embellish it, eventually reaching a point of total improvisation.

Too often I hear players who "improvise" by throwing together a string of licks they've learned. I'm guilty of it myself. That isn't good music, IMHO. One goal of improvisation is to create alternate melodies that are as valid as the song's real melody.

Chet Baker (trumpet) was a real master of this. On some of his tunes, the solo works so well that I tend to remember it as the actual melody of the tune.

I'm not sure how much a knowledge of music theory helps. I know theory pretty well, but I'm not very good at improvising. Chet Baker couldn't read music. Junior Knight plays entirely by ear. I don't think that knowing music theory hurts improvisation, but I do know that it's not necessary.

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Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 2 Sep 2003 10:31 am

Bobby Lee- You said one statement that says it all to me. MELODY, find the melody on your guitar, be able to play it.

Then you can improvise around it, BUT don't go too far astray!

Unless you are playing ALLOUT Jazz.

But even then, still play enough melody so the listener can still name the title to the tune.....al

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2 Sep 2003 11:53 am

Bobby Lee, when you mentioned Chet Baker, I could have kissed you through the monitor. Chet Baker was one of the greatest all time improvisers -- and many of his improvisations were little more than (genius) variations and alterations of the melodic line. Listen to Chet Baker and you will know exactly what I mean -- timing, phrasing, tone, economy -- all the hallmarks of a truly great improviser.

Bobby Lee is on the right track. Learn the melody, then learn to play with the melody, build your improvisation from the structure of the melody. Otherwise, you'll sound like you're playing a bunch of scales. Listen to Louis Armstrong, Stan Getz (especially Bossa Nova), Wes Montgomery, Kenny Dorham, Milt Jackson -- melodic and inventive players. Wow, I hope I didn't sound too pretentious there.

One more thing, get "Improvising Jazz" by Jerry Coker. The single best and most practical book on the subject.[This message was edited by Stephen O'Brien on 02 September 2003 at 12:57 PM.]

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 2 Sep 2003 1:49 pm

If you can't sing either vocally or mentally the part you are improvising then you are at a disadvantage.
Practice sitting down to your guitar and just singing a phrase. Then play that phrase on your instrument. Does not have to be EXACTLY as you sang it. Just very close. Don't worry that you are not a great singer. If you listen to the moanings and grumblings of the great jazz improvisors like Oscar Petterson or others, they are just playing on their instruments the melodies they are hearing and singing as they play. THE MUSICAL THOUGHT HAS TO BE IN YOUR HEAD BEFORE YOU TRY TO PLAY IT ON YOUR GUITAR!!! Otherwise the blind is just leading the blind.

You also will not just be able to come up with these improvs from thin air!!! You must build up a library of licks and phrases. Don't be embarrased to learn note for note some solos of great players. This will train your ear to hear all sorts of intervals and give you a musical "well" to dip from when you need it.

The first and most important thing to do when you are approaching improvising is to know the melody of the song you are playing backwards and forwards and to know the chords to the song to the point where you do not even have to remotly think about it. This will give you the freedom to experiment a bit harmonically and also give you an anchor to reel yourself back in if you need to.

Learn to play the blues!!!! You can play A little blues over just about anything and it will sound good.

I think also one of the most important improv skills is to be able to hear chord substitutions in your head. If you are playing a song in the key of C and the next chord is an F and all you think of is just moving from C to F----how boring!! You need to think of some other ways to get to the F besides being the master of the obvious. You can think of moving from C to a G minor to an Gb #11 chord and then to the F. That will give you some cool things to play over. A thourough knowledge of chords will give you a wealth of things to play.

Listen to the other players you are playing with while they are improvising. All you really need is one good idea at a time and you just might pick up a good lick to use on your solo from another player. Don't throw a good lick away when you do come across one!!!! Play it backwards and forwards and inside out and every way you can before you move on to the next ideas. Good improv ideas don't grow on trees. Great players know how to permutate their improv thoughts like a chess player figuring out his next move.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 2 Sep 2003 3:19 pm

I quite agree with what Bob Lee said. I don't think that practicing scales and theory helps all that much in improvisation, and I think of improvisation being more alternate melodies and chords than just gazillions of notes and gazillions of chords. One could almost consider improvisation as sheer "imagination"...music with a twist of irony.

One of the key things I look for is originality. That originality can be an alternate melody, or maybe a a series of notes or chords inserted into a song that you wouldn't expect, or possibly a new technique or sound being used. In essence, true improvisation is nothing more than the novelty or "surprise package" that keeps the music from becoming too boring, or sounding too structured. Not just a chance to "show off".

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 2 Sep 2003 6:29 pm

This is a very awkward subject to comment on as it can easily be percieved that the one writing may believe they have more ability than the next guy ( or gal) Which is not the case.

Truth is..the talent or gift of musical improvision, or expression was given long before any player actually decided to play an Instrument, regardless of which Instrument they play.

It's sorta like singing on pitch. Did you ever hear someone sing who thought they were singing on pitch ? Next would be singing an exact harmony line to another vocalist..you don't learn to do it..either you can or you can't .

Improvising starts in my opinion as being able to execute the melody line on your Instrument basically without ever having played it before. Obviously you must be very familiar with the tonal structure of your Instrument . Then like mentioned above, I feel proper improvision starts by working around the melody lines in and out, playing phrases that work within the confines of the particular song, then may take off into playing over the structure of the chord changes.The song itself will dictate to what extreme the musician will improvise. A song such as Blue Eyes Cryin' in the Rain allows for melody improvision which maintains a nice relationship to the original melody line but in a song such as Take 5..all bets are off..

Some fortunate folks can improvise out of the gate, others are close and can get there with some seat time, and of course others will never get there regardless of how much fret time they put in..

But this is not all good or bad news..
If one finds themself not to be fortunate to improvise they can become a smart player, learn to play melody lines and use some favorite licks or phrases as fill in's. Try not to be to repetitous . A player like this is very respected on the bandstand.

I usually ask for exta pay if they want me to sing on pitch..

TP[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 02 September 2003 at 07:37 PM.]

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 2 Sep 2003 7:01 pm

..I agree with b0b and Donny and Tony...and one of the best examples for me is Beethoven, and one of my favorites is his sixth symphony..he can lay down a simple theme in a dozen or so notes, and then play all around it, touch it again, run around it, caress it, and all of it on at least two levels at the same time....and then finally resolve it perfectly..

...it's just wonderful to hear, and hopefully to learn from...

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 7 Sep 2003 7:10 pm

Two helpful hints...

You must learn how to play what you hear in your head. Hear it (a few measures ahead) then play it on your instrument. This only comes from being so familiar with your instrument that you know how to play what you're conceptualizing.

Learn to sing improvisations. If you can't sing it, you won't be able to play it.

It's been said before, but learn scales, modes, listen to a lot of music, write all the music you can, develop your ear. It takes years, and you never stop learning... no matter how long you've been doing it.

Rick

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 8 Sep 2003 7:42 am

Bill,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I hope everyone pays attention to your well stated insight.

Bill is an accomplished world class musician whose abilities stretch far beyond the usual scope of this forum.

Paul

Scott Henderson · Post by **Scott Henderson** » 9 Sep 2003 4:53 am

onE OF THE BEST PHILOSOPIES OF IMPROV WAS JERNIGANS BOOK "HOW TO FLY" LEARNING VERTICAL AND HORIZONTAL TECHNIQUES WAS A BIG STEP FOR ME BECAUSE IT OPENED UP AN UNDERSTANDING OF PLAYING OUTSIDE THE MELODY LINE USING PROPER SCALE AND MODE TECHINQUES.
ALSO i went to an improv clinic with trumpet player mike vax when i was a kid. he said something that blew me away" therre are no wrong notes in improv" (long explaination I won't get into)

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Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com

Jim West · Post by **Jim West** » 9 Sep 2003 5:12 am

You've got to solidify those connections between the ears, brain and hands. The more you play the more solid those connections become.

Just my .02 worth

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 10 Sep 2003 10:22 am

All great ideas, I'd like to add:

Phrasing and a sense of space. When I'm taking a solo these days, using bigger intervallic jumps, thinking about phrasing my ideas and incorporating rests are the orders of the day. Tying to play more dynamically, too, but hell, I've only been playing for four years. I think about solos by George Harrsion, David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, McCoy Tyner, earlier Coltrane, Buddy Speicher, it's like these guys were singing through their instruments, so well phrased, paced everything. And so memorable I hope I haven't horrified anyone by mentioning guitarists, horn, fiddle and piano players.

Leon Grizzard · Post by **Leon Grizzard** » 11 Sep 2003 8:21 am

I can't remember who it was, but in a recent interview I was reading, someone said that you need to be able to think fast.

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 14 Sep 2003 12:09 pm

I don't know that I'd agree that there are no wrong notes in improvisation. However, Dizzy or Monk (or one of those cats) made the statement that you're never more than a half-step away from a note that'll work. I'll go with that

Rick

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 14 Sep 2003 12:21 pm

Rick,
I'd suggest a bridge between your statement and that of Scott, above. I'd say, "There are no wrong notes in improvisation, IF you know how to make them all sound right!" How you arrive at that note, how you get out of it and what the rest of the band is doing while you lean on it, all provide the context in which either that note will sound "right" or "wrong". Good bandstand players know how to "make lemonade out of lemons". Often I'll play a show and people will tell me how well they thought I played, but I realize how many things I went for that I missed, but I was able to "cover my tracks" and turn them into something sufficiently "acceptable" (there's that word again!) that most folks never heard my "mistake". (Actually, I kinda pride myself on being able to do that cuz, Lord knows, I'm gonna make a bunch of clams so I might as well get good at learning to deal with them).
FWIW,
Jimbeaux