A New Tuning?!?

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 15 Jul 2003 10:49 am

O.K., let's tune a pedal steel guitar to an open diminished chord. If you started with a low E equivalent to the low E of a standard guitar, the tuning would read low to high:

E G A# C# E G A# C# E G

The high G would be the same as a high G on a C6th tuning. If you raised the G's and the A#'s a half step each with a pedal and a lever or adjacent pedals, you would have a E6th tuning:

E G# B C# E G# B C# E G#

If you lowered the E's a half step with a pedal or knee, you would have an Eb7th tuning:

Eb G Bb Db Eb G Bb Db Eb G

Because there are only four notes in the tuning, it would take a total of only eight pedals or levers to raise and lower all the notes a half step. This would give you a full chromatic scale at one fret as well as some chord voicings I can't even begin to figure out until I assign specific raises and lowers. Every chord could be repeated every four frets. The big disadvantage to this tuning that I see is that you would have to constantly hold down some pedals or levers to play virtually anything at all. The big advantage to this tuning is that it is extremely logical, and therefore might be easier to play than even a standard guitar (with that half step drop between the G and B strings) or a piano (with those pesky black keys). It seems like it might be absolutely supreme for jazz and blues, with all those pedal-able flat 3’s and flat 5’s resolving into the next chord. There is still room for more pedals and levers for whole step changes, of course. The only other big disadvantage I see is that I don't have any “spare" pedal steel guitars on hand to try this out on. I don’t think I’ll demolish my only single neck just for the joy of this. If anyone wants to donate a "spare" pedal steel (and a bunch of pull rods, cross shafts etc.) to this cause, I would be content to spend the rest of my life lying around trying to figure it out.

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 15 Jul 2003 11:58 am

I once met a player namer Vince Acuna that had an old fender 8 stg guitar with 8 pedals.
He used a Bb dim tuning just like you are talking about. Each pedal would raise one stg 1/2 step. He could play the fire out of that tuning and play ANY kind of music.
He played me a big band chart of "April in Paris" that took my breath away it was so full and lush. Vince used his right hand little finger on the volume knob on that old fender and had both feet flying all over the pedals, sometimes using up to 4 at once.
JE:-)>

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Emmons D10 8/4 P/P -75'
Fessenden SD-10 3/5
76'Session 400
86'Nashville 400
Bandit 112

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 15 Jul 2003 3:55 pm

I was wondering about this a couple of years ago. It's interesting that someone else is, and even more interesting to think that someone has already done something similar.

The thing that got me thinking about it was that diminished chords can be used on a regular guitar to derive almost any kind of chord needed, in four positions (inversions). The method for this is similar to what's mentioned above: Drop any note in the four-note diminished shape to get a 7th chord for that note as root, then adjust the other notes to get other chord types. If you know what notes a chord can do without, you can get a lot of four-note chords, and do so in a way that is perfectly symmetrical while -- as a by-product -- learning chord synonyms; synonyms that may not as quickly reveal themselves in another framework. [This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 15 July 2003 at 04:59 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Jul 2003 5:19 pm

This would give you a full chromatic scale at one fret...

I don't see any particular advantage to that!

To me, the definitive aspect of the sound of a pedal steel is not simply to create chords (that is done much more ably on a piano), but to play a chord and then bend some (or all) of those notes smoothly, and create another chord.

While I certainly applaud your thinking and initiative, I feel a tuning with an open diminished chord would only make some of the now simple (and beautiful) chord transitions more difficult.

Conversely, though, it might be just the ticket for a non-traditional musical style, like "New-Age" or "World Music", where the 1-4-5 progression, and major, minor, seventh, and nineth chords are not such a staple.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 15 Jul 2003 9:36 pm

Most new age music follows the traditional rules of harmony, Donny. It's typically stacked triads behind fairly normal melodies.

I see several problems with a diminished tuning. First of all, you must engage the changer to get any major or minor chords. Secondly, you can't tune it by harmonics (just intonation) - it won't come out right. So you're stuck with equal temperment which doesn't sound as good.

Lastly, it's really confusing to play without a conceptual key that moves up and down the fretboard. E9th players think of the 3rd fret as the "G fret". I think that a tuning without a key signature would be pretty confusing.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 16 Jul 2003 8:35 pm

Bobby has brought up a good point....

Why not just tune it to E6, then get your dim and other chords with pedals , flat 5, flat third and Maj7 is all you need to get a lot of 6th type songs.
like this=
<pre>
G#............................A
E................F#
C#...............D#...D
B.....A#..................C#
G#.........G..................A
E
C#....................D
B.....A#..................C#
G#.........A(or(G)............A
E
</pre>

Just a good way to get E9 and E6 both on the same tuning with the same bar positions...al

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[url=http://www.cmedic.net/~almarcu ... ~almarcus/ [/url]

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 16 July 2003 at 09:57 PM.]

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 16 Jul 2003 9:06 pm

Yeah, I guess the thing about the diminished concept on regular guitar is that it's great as kind of a "slide rule" to use in order to come up with chord fingerings. (I got this from Pat Martino, BTW. he does something similar with augmented triads.)

It's easier to carry a concept like this around in my head than a chord book. I guess that doesn't mean it would make a good tuning for steel guitar.

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 17 Jul 2003 6:51 am

I agree with b0b, that a succesion of equal 3rd. (minor or major) intervals would be un-tunable in a just-intonation concept as such a stack will produce octaves that are off substantially from each other, in other words; out of tune.

Yes, I believe that the e9th and c6th (and resulting cotraptions) concept is outdated and that the instrument is in bad need (IMHO) of a new tuning concept that will lead it away from that "wing-wang"-sound. Music has evolved a lot and most typical steel guitar sounds carrying styles have died out. Both of these two main tunings do have the capability to play anything, that is certain, but somehow they seem to bring us always back to an idom so typical of these tunings. Mashing A&B will just always sound, well... just like it and listeners will thing "aha, that country thing (from way back then when country was... country)" as well as strumming or noodeling around on that 6th tuning will always bring up memories of those nice days when you could actually get a date at a Luau or a Westen swing ball with a girl that has not not yet fought menopause related issues.

Maybe some kind of tuning in the diatonic direction may be the way to go... but that would eventually add strings to our already strange enough looking instrument, in order tu secure a tonal range that fits our ego(?).

... J-D.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 17 Jul 2003 9:59 am

If you hit just the F lever on E9 you have a diminished chord on most strings. You can then play with your other pedals and levers to see what you can get with them. If you have a universal you can throw in the B6 pedals and knees. Then of course you can let go of the F lever and get all the major and minor chords of E9 (and B6 with a uni). Then you realize...wait, this is what I already have all the time anyway.

My own big experiment is beginning soon. I am awaiting the shipment of a used Carter D12. At first it will be dedicated solely to experimentation. I will convert it to an E9/B6 universal on the near neck, and try a Sacred Steel E7 ala Robert Randolph on the far neck. That should pretty much cover it all and embody the whole history of the steel guitar. Don't hold your breath, 'cause this will take awhile - what with my day job, 4 kids, and the occasional practice session and gig. Maybe in about a year I'll report back on how it worked out. Or maybe you'll see the D12 back in Buy and Sell.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 17 Jul 2003 1:43 pm

J D Sauser wrote:

Yes, I believe that the e9th and c6th (and resulting contraptions) concept is outdated and that the instrument is in bad need (IMHO) of a new tuning concept that will lead it away from that "wing-wang"-sound.

I gotta disagree, J D. My experimentation with tunings (including pentatonic and diatonic tunings) has led me to the conclusion that the player, not the tuning, is responsible for most of the perceived limitations of the instrument.

The E9th sounds country because people play country AB-pedal licks on it. The C6th sounds Hawaiian or jazzy because that's what people are using it for. But I've found that both tunings are equally well-suited for rock, blues, new age, latin, etc. A new tuning is not necessary to play different styles of music.

Back to the subject: Anyone who's seriously interested in exploring a diminished chord tuning could do it by retuning a standard C6. Lower the G string to Gb and both E strings to Eb. That should give you a taste.

Another option is to tune a lap steel to the Leavitt tuning: C# E G Bb C D. Notice that the low 4 strings are a diminished chord. You can buy Mike Ihde's arrangements for the Leavitt tuning from the Forum catalog. That would give you some practical experience with a diminished tuning.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax