More on tone

William Peters · Post by **William Peters** » 19 May 2003 10:54 am

I find all the discussions about tone to be quite interesting. Black guitars have better tone... push-pulls sound better.... metal necks sound better, wood necks sound better, brand X has better tone, etc.

I'm surprised that there has been no discussion about one factor that certainly has an effect on tone.... Pickup Placement.

Anyone with a Strat, SG, Tele, or what have you knows that the bridge pickup sounds entirely different than the neck pickup. On a 6 string, the pickup location has a much bigger effect than whether it is a single coil or a hum-bucker.

So, where is your pickup located? Mine (Cougar) is exactly 2 1/4 inches from the center of the changer axle to the center of my pickup.

Bill

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 19 May 2003 1:04 pm

Both my 2003 Fessy and my '69 Emmons are 1 7/8" from center of changer finger to the center of the magnet poles (sgl coils on both)

Interesting topic, but I don't recall ever seeing a steel or standard guitar that allows adjustment of that distance. I would've thought that if it makes a big difference someone would have made it adjustable. I also suspect that the 'best spot' is in the ears of the beholder and somewhat subjective.

There are steels with two (or perhaps more) pickups. I've seen Paul Franklin play one with two pickups before.

The closer to the bridge you mount the pickup, the fewer overtones will be picked up since it's at the most stable section of the string -- near the bridge. I've often thought of installing another, but it's not minor surgery unless you use a flush mount pickup. Probably more trouble than it's worth, IMHO.

And, I think most will agree that mica guitars and aluminum necks create a BRIGHTER sound than lacquer guitars and wood necks. If that's the sound you're looking for, I suppose you'd conclude it's BETTER. I've gone both ways, and found I like the sound of a brighter guitar toned down somewhat with EQ than a 'not so bright' guitar with the treble boosted. Just MHO.

Oh yeah, and, black mica guitars DO sound better (better than WHAT is the question).

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12, Standel and Peavey Amps[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 19 May 2003 at 02:19 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 19 May 2003 1:25 pm

Pick-up placment has nothing to do with the timbre of the guitar anymore than a microphone has to do with where you pick up a singers voice. The voice is the same, how you mic it is what changes the way you hear it. The timber of the voice or the timbre of the guitar doen't change. What you are saying makes no more sense than where you are in relation to the guitar (ampilfier)when you hear it. Sure it sounds different when you move the pickup, it sounds different when you here it behind a closed door too. but the guitar is always delivering the same tone from it's body, strings,changer, etc.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 19 May 2003 1:33 pm

I'll have to disagree with Dr. Seymour.
BULL-oney

I don't think anyone ever said that it CHANGES THE TIMBRE OF THE GUITAR. That's not the point at all. It DOES change the sound that comes out of the amplifier, which is the most important thing to my ears.

You can't tell me that a pickup 4" or more from the bridge is going to reinforce (pick up) the same vibrations as one near the bridge. It's just not so, Joe. The string has much more freedom to deform the further you go from the pivot point. If you mic someone's throat or chest vs their mouth you WILL get a different (and less desirable) result. It doesn't change the native tone of the instrument, but it DOES change what part of the tonal spectrum is reproduced.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 19 May 2003 at 02:36 PM.]

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 19 May 2003 1:42 pm

Bill and Larry, I think you have opened up a new bucket. I posted on this very thing in 1999 and the "tonesperts" drove nails so far into me that you could hang your hat on the nails in the adjacent room. I can remember the first Fender that I had had 4 pickups and a switch to change from one to the other. The tone darn sure changed on them. My Strat changes tone when moving from one to the other, and I would wager that pickup placement certainly has an effect on the 'subjective selection' of "tone".

My MSA Classics' (all 4 of them) pickup is located 2 inches from the center of the changer finger to center of the pickup magnet. My new MSA Millennium is located the same distance as the Classics. The tone is certainly not the same because I use different pickups.
Get the firetrucks out because I'm certain all the "tonesperts" are lighting up the torches. I would also wager that this is the most discussed item on this Forum, and probably not one single person has sold the guitar they own, gone out and bought the brand guitar the "tonesperts" say is the best.
If there ever was an element that is in the "ear of the beholder", it is TONE, whatever the he!! that is.

Fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 19 May 2003 1:45 pm

Larry, OK, I think you are saying the same thing I am.(about the tone of the guitar)

Larry, No, I don't agree on Metal necks sounding brighter, unless you take them off the guitar and hit them with a hammer. Neck material, I have proven to many folks , many times has nothing to do with bright or dull and I can prove it over and over. I have taken the necks of guitars, restrung them, played then for people and they couldn't tell the difference in tone at all. Cabinet drop increased, hard to find the correct frets, but tone was not noticeable to any one around, no matter what we used as a neck material. The guitars used for this test were the Sho-Bud ProIIIs.(my two personal steels are Emmons P-Ps, one wood neck, one aluminum, no difference in sharp or dull) The changer was then changed to the wood neck ProII style and a big difference was found at this time. This test was repeated with three guitars and no difference in test results were noted.
Metal? Wood? Wood had less cabinet drop was the only difference.
This wood/metal controversy is as silly as the Black sounds better reasoning.
The Doctor[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 19 May 2003 at 02:47 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 19 May 2003 at 02:48 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 19 May 2003 at 03:07 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 20 May 2003 at 12:51 PM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 19 May 2003 2:14 pm

Ever notice the difference in tone in the Sho-Bud Super Pro wood necks and the aluminum necks? The Aluminum neck Super Pro is much more mellow and richer, but only because the changer mounting is totally different, not because of the neck material. Ever notice that all Emmons P-P guitars are "Bolt ons"? Most metal neck Emmons steels aren't. This is where the tone change is, (and in the imagination of people using their eyes instead of their ears).

Hey Larry, and everyone, sorry about all these edits, I'm trying to improve my spelling, this is one reason I like to get on here and spread what I've learned the hard way with all you guys. Thanks for listening. [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 19 May 2003 at 03:19 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 19 May 2003 at 03:20 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 19 May 2003 at 03:21 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 19 May 2003 2:31 pm

Thanks for being there, Bobbe. We love you.

What would we do without our daily dose of BS?????

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps
[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 19 May 2003 at 03:32 PM.]

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 19 May 2003 5:19 pm

Bobbe and Larry, I was writing my little spiel when you guys were posting. My take:
What am I talking about? Let's see, I was trying to stay within the confines of the topic initiated by Bill. If I'm confused, please help me out. My understanding was that Bill simply said that the "pickup placement" with relation to the "changer" had an effect on the illusive "tone", of which everyone makes over so much. My statements simply were that the tonal quality of the sound changes varies with that placement.
Now I'm certain I'm not qualified to discuss the physics aspects of the audio spectrum, but I have the feeling I'm in good company.
Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding of , or the meaning of "tone" is that it is a term defining a characteristic of an audible sound that is caused by the definite pitch and/or vibration of the strings, causing a change in the magnetic field of the pickup, transduced, and transferred, by cable to the amplifier. My understanding of the word "timbre" is the quality or listenability of that pitch that is primarily a product of the overtones of that pitch, meaning that the more overtones, the more mellow the sound; and my understanding of the term "pitch" is that it is the property of a sound or tone that is determined by the frequencies of the sound waves.
The question then seems to be if the pickup placement were closer to the changer, because of the lack of space for the harmonics to be generated, to me it would appear there would be fewer overtones and the tonal quality heard would be more treble than bass present in the audio and a placement further in distance from the changer would give the string more space in which to vibrate, there would be more overtones and consequently the tonal quality would be more bassier--if there is such a word--than previously stated.
Now staying within the confines of the topic--placement of the pickup-- and disregarding all other factors that somehow manage to creep into the discussion, such as material, pickup windings, cables, amplifiers, room structure, make of the instrument, and whatever else, I find my part of the discussion to be reasonable i.e., the closer the pickup to the changer, the more treble the tone will be, the further distance between the pickup and changer, the tone will have more of a bass texture.
If that's not so, then Fender wasted a hell of a lot of money on the Telecaster, Stratocaster, and all other guitar makers who put more than one pickup on their instruments were shoveling it against the tide. My take and $.02 worth, and the flame retardant suit is on and I'm on my way to take a pill.

Fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 19 May 2003 5:33 pm

Very elementary Watson. (I mean Fred)

Let Me know when you are ready for your next dose history/research (bs) and I'll give you a very true story of the birth of the ProIII Sho-Bud, why it was conceived, why it didn't come out the way it was planned, and how the tone which everyone loved was altered to give the masses what they thought they wanted. It goes right along with this thread.

Bobbe Seymour (BS) [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 20 May 2003 at 12:49 PM.]

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 19 May 2003 5:54 pm

Bobbe, I would be glad to hear it and the (bs) was not mine and I'm sure you're an authority on the Buds. First however, does or does not my assumption about pickup placement ring true or am I all wet?

Fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

LARRY COLE · Post by **LARRY COLE** » 19 May 2003 6:16 pm

Pickup placement plays a big part in what you hear in the same way as where you pick the strings. Gibson made a bass guitar in the 80's with a sliding pickup. You can experiment if you have a pickup that is not mounted. Just hook it up to an amp and hold it over the strings. Move it back and forth and listen to the difference in sound. Move it past the half way point between the changer and the nut or bar and yo might be suprised that the sound is the same on both ends.

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Playing For JESUS,LC. WILLIAMS U12, SHO-BUD PRO1,CARVIN TL60

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 19 May 2003 6:21 pm

Fred, you know you are correct, yes,you are. I just find something ironic about you, tone, and ---, oh never mind (Ha! Ha!).

Any way Fred, Back in 1973 David Jackson called me and said ,"what am I going to do, every player in town is leaving us and going to Emmons guitars, I replied, well, build a metal neck guitar and see what that does, everyone likes the Emmons aluminum necks. David said, I'll have a guitar ready next Wednesday for you to hear. I went by the factory promptly on Wednesday and there it was, a Pro II with polished Aluminum necks. I said, "what does it sound like?" He replied, I don't know, no one has seen or played it yet. I played it for over an hour, compared it to several Pro II steels, and the tone was richer, fatter, more substance etc. He screamed NO! This isn't what they all want, they want the Emmons TREBLE sound, the cutting sound. I told David that this was an even better tone, his following statement: "I need the Emmons market, not a great sounding guitar I can't sell!". I then made the statement, then just cut the pickups from 18.500 ohlms to 16.000 and you'll have the cutting/clear treble tone you and everyone thinks they want.
So this started the fable that Metal necks are more clear, treble, sharper etc. If you wanted a Sho-Bud to be trebley, get metal necks, bassier, wood. BUT, it wasn't the necks that were doing the tone change, It was thinner pickups.
One of the greatest sounding guitars ever built: The Sho-Bud ProIII with MODERN fat pickups, the technoligy of today mixed with that great old guitar that wasn't suposed to sound that good. David designed the guitar to sound like and Emmons,(which he thought was bad!).
Then along came the Super-Pro, Yep, about the same story. Only the competitive magic was starting to leave the company by then, Fender, Baldwin, Grestch, were all making a play to buy it from David, (he was sole owner by then) and David's enthusium was wearing thin by then so, Dec.31, 1984, he delivered the production end to Grestch, I bought all the parts, left over guitars,wood, expermental guitars,(many) and hundreds of cases, new,Barrels and barrels of now rare parts. I let Ed Naylor have a ton of stuff since he helped me move, we both about died in this 5 day period. Horrible rainy , cold weather,and all we had to move was my pickup and a borrowed pickup truck from a fiddle player. I had so many guitars I didn't know what to do with them. I remember needing a handkercheif to blow my nose during one trip out with a load of parts, Ed said, what would you give me for a new , unused rag to blow your nose on? I said, a new Fender 2000, he pulled out a handkerchef and I said "Done deal". We were both happy.I lost the rag, he still has the Fender 2000!

Bobbe,

Your friend and buddy, [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 19 May 2003 at 08:56 PM.]

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 19 May 2003 7:39 pm

When I put an E-66 on my MSA Classic, (distance exactly 2" like above), I noticed a big difference between when the pickup was level in relation to the strings, and when it was tilted slightly forward.

Bobbe, I find your comments on metal and wood necks very interesting. Thanks for posting them. (Count one more vote for the Sho-Bud story as well.) Ed Fulawka says the same thing is true on his guitars, i.e. that the neck material makes no difference in sound. I'm reminded of how MSA (according to Reece) did research on metal and wood and found no difference. However, when Reece sometime back had a custom-built metal neck put on his old MSA, the contention was that the cavities in the aluminum created a difference that wasn't audible in the solid aluminum that MSA experimented with and rejected. Does this sound reasonable to you?

You seem to hold to what I understand also to be the view of Carter, and of Gene Fields; that a neck isn't even necessary for tone. Hence, Carter decided on a less expensive folded aluminum neck for their standard.

Is the determining factor perhaps how the body of the guitar is allowed to resonate underneath the neck?

Also, something I've wanted to ask for awhile:

It seems that any tone difference that happened when Buddy Emmons went to the mica body was an accidental byproduct of his desire for a more resilient surface. Do you think that the mica may inhibit low-frequency vibrations in the body, thus leaving more highs?

It seems like one of those crazy things that just happened, without being planned. You'd think a designer might consider it counterintuitive to do something that would deliberately interfere with what the body was designed to do(resonate).

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 19 May 2003 7:49 pm

Bill P.
I think you make a good point about the pickup placement. I listed the 4 MSA's because I thought it unique they all would be exactly the same distance between the pickups and the changers.
Larry B. had already posted the Emmons distance so I thought it would just be redundant to repost mine, it is the same. Perhaps if I had done so I would have been able to "Meet Muster" on Tone.
However, since I've only been playing steel since 1947, and being 70 years old, and believing falsely, I find out that I am a laughing stock where tone is concerned--I also find I don't need the sarcasm...
All sores have scabs and sometimes some of them get knocked off. Healing is a process expedited by healthy bodies and minds.

Bill, thanks for the thread.

FRED

My edit: "Fred, you know you are correct, yes,you are. I just find something ironic about you, tone, and ---, oh never mind (Ha! Ha!)."

Mr. Seymour's edit at 08:56 Pm includes all statements made after the above quote. His original post only had the above statement. Same old thing with the edits, makes you look bad. Just like with Bob Carlson.
Fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

[This message was edited by Fred Shannon on 20 May 2003 at 12:15 AM.]

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 19 May 2003 8:08 pm

I think I had the first standard style MSA steel ever built with aluminum necks, around '74, it was black, I used it with Lynn Anderson for a while. I had to talk the factory into it but I think Maurice and the boys wanted to see what the tonal outcome would be.
This guitar came back into my life about four years ago and we did a lot more expermenting on it then than I did with the MSA factory in the beginning. The MSA "tone" was still the same , with either neck material, the aluminum neck looked great though. I beleive MSA made around three of them later, so I hear.

Check my earlier post on here about the Sho-Bud ProIII development phase. All this proves that neck material is not very important to tone, 10 winds of pickup wire will affect it more!
Where is tone? Body and Changer, mostly. there are five more things that affect it also, but to a lesser degree.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 19 May 2003 8:13 pm

Jeff Smith, No, it doesn't sound reasonable to me. If you need to know more about my opinion on that matter, e-mail me. I have an opinion! (Ha! Ha!)

Also Jeff, Not hardly (if any) difference in mica or plain wood. I have an Emmons mica guitar and a wood Emmons with wood necks. Both the same year Push-Pulls. Not hardly any difference, and what difference there is, is in the fact that the wood necks have "bolt on" changers, not the aluminum and wood issue.
Your buddy,[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 19 May 2003 at 09:19 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 19 May 2003 8:18 pm

Larry Cole. I think you have it.

Of course where the pickups are positioned makes a difference. Try it on any strat or Burton Tele.

More important is where you pick the string.

Second only to that, is how hard you pick the string, and whether you pick from a mute. either full partial or none.

I don't know how you'd move pickups much farther away from the heel without forcing your hand onto the fretboard. I suppose it could be done.

Oh.. nevermind....

EJL

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 19 May 2003 8:23 pm

Eric, in one way or another, everything makes a difference,(but not to me, anymore, I'm too old!)

Buy my Buell, QUICK! It's gonna' kill me!

It's an EJL model, 115 horse power, weighs 395 lbs. [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 19 May 2003 at 09:23 PM.]

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 19 May 2003 9:56 pm

So far, Bobbe Seymour has 40% of this topic. I think the word "tone" is a Bobbe magnet!

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 19 May 2003 9:56 pm

I know what you mean. A lot of it is becoming a blur... Working this last run of 9 nites and most days kind of does that for me..

You know, I've heard a lot f guitars, but my Pro111 with the nice fat pickups that Danny wound for me is about the only one I've found that I really liked.

This was perhaps "drilled into me" by Bud C's playing a green one there in the back room of Oxon hill Music in the 70s. I never thought to ask him, but it turns out he didn't own one. His was a custom Emmons at the time.. The "Super Pros" were wimpy from the ones that I saw.

I can't even play an Emmons. Those atomic dealies screw up my whole program. and the ones I've played sound kind of ( I ll just say) different. Sierras never seem to stay in tune for me, and all I hear is strings.

So shoot me..

Bikes?

I'm not a Buell kind of guy.

Look at those over 100mph rides as life realization excersizes. Only when sudden death is immediately appearant, do things like "tone" and "timbre" take their proper perspective.

Below 100mph, "maiming" and "severe injury" creep into your conciousness, and start clouding issues with petty concerns.

Always have "that one bridge abuttment" somewhere in the back of your mind.

Don't run with sharp instruments.

Etc. Etc..

"Now go do the right thing."
-Dr Laura-

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 19 May 2003 at 11:18 PM.]

Graham Griffith · Post by **Graham Griffith** » 19 May 2003 10:53 pm

This is just my attempt to elicit a Bobbe Seymour reply!

I'm fast heading toward getting my Anapeg pedal steel. A lot of people may know about Noel Anstead's use of Gidgee ... a very dense (hence heavy) wood. In an attempt to get a lighter guitar I opted for Leopard Ash (a slightly less dense [not much] wood). In my various discussions with Noel it came out that he reckoned that the body (wood in this case)should not affect the tone. Hence mechanism and pickups would, by default, be the other variables.

Despite all this, Noel still uses dense woods .... how come? Do you have an answer, Bobbe? By the way, Noel is forever experimenting with pickup design (looking for a particular tonal quality) and mechanical refinements.

Graham[This message was edited by Graham Griffith on 19 May 2003 at 11:54 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 May 2003 6:23 am

My own theory is that it's the mass of the changer, and (to a lesser extent) the mass of the body and the changer mounting, that gives a steel it's particular tone, or sound. Moving the pickup would certainly give you more bass or treble, but it wouldn't affect the basic tone (timbre) of the guitar. If all it took was a heavy, dense body to give a good sound, then the old Fenders, and the plywood MSA's, would have been kings of tone and sustain, but most players would agree that that's not the case. Clearly, there's a lot more going on here than meets the eye.

Take, for instance, the old bakelite Ricky's, and the new MSA millennium. Here, we have two guitars at the opposite end of the spectrum. The old Ricks, for their size, were one of the heaviest guitars made. The new MSA, for it's size, is one of the lightest guitars made. They both have a solid tone and excellent sustain.

So what's going on here? It must be the changer/bridge that has most of the influence on the sound of the guitar. In an acoustic guitar, it's the bridge and the top that give the guitar most of it's sound. In an electric guitar, it's the bridge and the neck mounting/design. Each design factor has a particular effect on the sound. In the story Bobbe related, many players wanted that "Emmons" sound out of their Sho~Bud, and while a 13K single-coil wouldn't have done that completely, it would have gone a long way towards getting that same "razor-thin" tone.

I've heard many players say there's nothing like the P/P Emmons sound. Yet, when Buddy himself admits that the only difference he hears in the P/P's is "a little more highs", I tend to think that most players in this wild "search for tone" are just chasing their tails.

In my own mind, I don't hear many guitars that have a "bad tone", but I do hear a lot of players using what I would call "a bad tone". They're just putting the blame in the wrong area.

William Peters · Post by **William Peters** » 20 May 2003 7:07 am

Donny,

I have to agree with you about the mass of the changer and changer mount being extremely important to the overall sound of the instrument. This can be easily proven by observing the effect of a low mass steel, such as a bread knife, on the tone produced. The bridge and the steel bar both need to reflect the energy of the vibrating string back into the string as much as possible to get maximum sustain. Anything which bleeds off energy into the body will decrease sustain and alter the tone.

As far as the placement of the pickup only affecting the amount of bass or treble however, I must disagree.

Take any six string guitar with a bridge pickup and a neck pickup. If it were only a matter of the amount of bass or treble, I should be able to duplicate the bridge pickup tone by using the neck pickup and boosting the treble... but its not possible... It never duplicates the sound. Likewise, the bridge pickup will never sound like the neck pickup no matter what the settings of the EQ are. The bridge pickup will pick up overtones that don't exist at the neck position, and no amount of amplification will produce something that wasn't in the orginal signal.

If it were possible just to EQ the sound to get the equivalent of multiple pickups, the guitar manufacturers would already be doing it to save the cost of a pickup and to provide even more variety in tone.

My Cougar has a single coil pickup, and for my tastes, it sounds too much like the middle pickup on a Strat. I don't like it. But I do think it would sound better if I could move it back toward the bridge a little bit.

Bill
Saving my money for a Black & Red Emmons

Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 20 May 2003 8:35 am

This is going to start drawing in the materials science guys, like Chas.... Donny, your posts are always well-informed and well-expressed, and you are probably a better engineer than I am, but it isn't just the mass of the bridge, or changer: if mass by itself were that important, then lead guitars would sound great, and have great sustain, while as you have already indicated, bodies made with lower mass materials do very well (much better than lead!) in both respects.

Some dense, heavy materials absorb sound energy; some transmit it efficiently, which in a bridge or changer means sending it to the body and getting it back, and giving it back to the strings, with various colorations introduced along the way. The materials that work well as bridges (and changers, to the extent tried or practical, i.e. other than the woods) include bakelite, steel, ebony, maple -- and also spruce, aluminum, titanium and carbon fiber composite. What these materials, which transmit sound energy well, all have in common isn't their mass: it's their ratio of stiffness to mass, or "modulus of elasticity." I'm sure this isn't the whole story, but it accounts for more than mass does.

To others: pickup placement obviously makes a big difference to the sound of an electric instrument. If anyone doesn't find the 6-string analogies convincing, try fiddling around with the blend knob on a Stringmaster -- or ask Chas or Michael Johnstone, who both play PSGs with multiple pickups. For a real good illustration of what pickup placement does, look at this: http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/index.html [This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 20 May 2003 at 09:43 AM.][This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 20 May 2003 at 09:46 AM.][This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 20 May 2003 at 09:48 AM.]