Anti Cabinet Drop/Raise Feature

Steve Mueller · Post by **Steve Mueller** » 10 Sep 2014 7:08 pm

Are there any steels that offer the anti cabinet drop/raise feature other than Emmons and Zumsteel?

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 10 Sep 2014 9:00 pm

Excel

Will Cowell · Post by **Will Cowell** » 11 Sep 2014 1:56 am

Are you getting cabinet drop on your 700, Steve? I fitted a compensator to mine, to raise the 6th string a tad. It seems to work just fine but was surprised that I needed it.

Steve Mueller · Post by **Steve Mueller** » 11 Sep 2014 4:43 pm

It's a keyed series 700 with pitch return comps on both necks. It plays very well. There's about 2 cents drop on E9 neck on strings 4 and 7 with pedals 1 and 2 depressed. Also a small amount of cabinet raise on pedal 8 on C6. It's a small thing but the nearer you can tune to 440 across the board the better. So you're saying you added a compensator that raises 4 and 7 back to pitch with pedal 2 depressed? I couldn't do that anyway because I've already got three raises on string 4.

Richard Tipple · Post by **Richard Tipple** » 11 Sep 2014 6:32 pm

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 12 Sep 2014 2:29 am

The only place the "cabinet drop" shows up on my guitar is with a tuner. When playing its not an issue.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Sep 2014 4:58 am

What Jack said.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 12 Sep 2014 7:00 am

When I get that accurate with my bar then I'll start worrying about cabinet drop.

Will Cowell · Post by **Will Cowell** » 12 Sep 2014 8:00 am

Well, you guys are lucky. I can really hear the difference, no tuner needed. When I go up 3 and engage A & F for a major chord, the 6 string drops so far it sounds lousy. I tried a wound 6 string but that required so much movement and force to raise the 6 with the B pedal I decided to revert to a plain 6th and to rig a "micro-raise" to tweak the 6 string a few cents higher when the A pedal is engaged. My ears no longer protest... I just cut a piece of 2.5mm rod from a coat hanger and threaded it. Easy to make a retaining spring out of a paper clip.

Steve Mueller, I didn't say any of what you suggest I said. I raise the 6th only. Richard Tipple, it looks just like any other raise. It just uses the minimum movement possible so as to raise the string a fraction only.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 12 Sep 2014 8:30 am

Bruce Bouton, in his instruction video says you will never get the AF combination in tune.

John Scanlon · Post by **John Scanlon** » 12 Sep 2014 8:32 am

Jack Stoner wrote:Bruce Bouton, in his instruction video says you will never get the AF combination in tune.

So what's the answer (or *an* answer), short of just not ever playing an E string during an AF chord?

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 12 Sep 2014 8:38 am

I play the A & F combination all the time. I believe the secret of getting it to sound alright is to tune the F down to 433.
John,
The E string is the F in the above combination.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 12 Sep 2014 11:43 am

I tune using the Newman presets in the Peterson tuner (E's +9.8 cents). My bar does any extra compensation, if I hear it. A little bar vibrato goes a long ways sometimes.

Another thing about tuning that Bruce mentioned. Tune the guitar open and then go up to the 8th or 10th fret and check it. Many times it will be out and you have to retune to compensate.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 12 Sep 2014 11:54 am

Erv Niehaus wrote:When I get that accurate with my bar then I'll start worrying about cabinet drop.

same here. i'm not good enough to worry that much.

the e-f raise always has to be way flat to sort of blend.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 12 Sep 2014 3:04 pm

I am totally convinced that most everyone would never hear the cabinet drop on their guitar if they hadn't seen it on a tuner first. The power of suggestion is very powerful at times. My guitar shows a little cabinet drop on my tuner, but I don't hear it.

I use the sweetened E9 on my Stroboflip. The A & F combo sounds OK. I just have to adjust the placement of my bar a little above the fret.

Steve Mueller · Post by **Steve Mueller** » 12 Sep 2014 7:28 pm

Will, I get what you're saying now, your concern is drop in 6th string with AF combo, I was referring to drop in 4 and 8(I said 7 in error in my reply to you)with the AB pedal combo. I don't have that AF combo issue on my guitar, almost no cabinet drop at all(maybe one half cent) with the A pedal only. It's true that the AF major chord is a tricky position since your C# root is probably tuned flat to start(I tune mine to match the G# around 438.5), so your major third(F) is going to be even flatter. You just have to adjust your bar slightly sharp to be in tune. A temperment comp to raise the 6th string is a creative solution to the cabinet drop you experience there. Ultimately I still think the closer you can get to 440 the better, especially with respect to the other instruments in the band. Cabinet raise/drop is just another element complicating this issue. If it can be eliminated, great. If not, you just work it out by adjusting the temperments you use to tune.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 13 Sep 2014 2:46 am

I'd point out that it's dead easy to get the C#/E# interval in tune: the problem is that the G# as 3rd to E is SIGNIFICANTLY sharp of the G# that's 5 to C#, since most of us run that C# 17-20 cents flat of ET, so the G# would want to be about that. But the G# is tuned around -6 to -8, and sharped fifths sound icky.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 13 Sep 2014 7:56 am

I never could find an E# on my guitar. When I raised the E, it always went to F. Same way with the B. I Could never get the B#, it always went to C.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 13 Sep 2014 9:10 am

Erv, the third of a C# chord is E#. It's just at the same place as F....

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 13 Sep 2014 9:21 am

But the base tuning of the guitar is in E, not C#, thus making it an F, or a flat 9.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 13 Sep 2014 10:12 am

That note gets most often used as the C# chord, where the note IS the third, therefore E#, and probably second most used as an augmented 5th (ABF), where again it's a sharped E, and if a sharped E isn't E#, I just don't know...

Henry Senior · Post by **Henry Senior** » 13 Sep 2014 10:51 am

Is there a full explanation of the sweetened tuning anywhere on the forum?

I get the general idea but find myself going round in circles when considering how to make the compromises.

My main problem is getting the A+F combo work with the A+B (so how much to raise the Bs)

17 - 20c flat Lane has suggested, I'll try that. What are the other bits of the sweetened tuning?

Steve Knight · Post by **Steve Knight** » 13 Sep 2014 11:43 am

I'm not sure I'm following this thread. Is this correct?

You can make a major triad/chord on the E9 on strings 456 (just one example) in a "no pedals" position, with A&B down, or with A&F.

no pedals:
string 4=root of chord
string 5=5th of chord
string 6=3rd of chord

move up 3 frets & hit A&F
string 4=3rd
string 5=root
string 6=5th

move up 4 more frets & hit A&B:
string 4=5th
string 5=3rd
string 6=root

Is the problem with the AF because you've tuned to EQ and the 3rd is moving between strings in the different chord inversions?

If that is correct, wouldn't 440 tuning avoid this?

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 13 Sep 2014 12:09 pm

Picking up on what Richard and Lane are saying, the A/F chord is a C# chord at the nut and the E# is its third. F would be the flattened 9th in an E chord, but we're not talking about an E chord. (BTW I think that to call the lever "F" is fine - it would be way too pedantic to insist on calling it the "E# lever" all the time.)

I tune by ear because I always have, and I find that if I hit the correct spot three-and-a-bit frets up, the A/F chord will sound as sweet as the pedals-up and pedals-down (in)versions. The only limitation is that the 7th obtained by releasing the A pedal is horrible, but there are plenty of good ones elsewhere.

Steve, your analysis is correct, and the position of the third is indeed relevant. I think the problem with A/F is that if you use a sweetened tuning, especially good old JI, then three frets up is considerably more than three and some players are uncomfortable being off the fret and think the tuning's wrong. Me, I play trombone too, so I'm used to remembering modified positions for certain notes.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 13 Sep 2014 1:33 pm

The best way to make the AF combo ring true is, as suggested, tune to straight ET.
The problem doesn't lie with the cray flat "F" (I give up), that's fine. The problem is that the G# isn't flat enough.