Floor pedal spacing??

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 27 Jul 2014 12:11 pm

In another thread I inquired about pedal travel. Now it has occurred to me that the spacing between floor pedals is something I should also be exploring.

Since my problem is occasionally not being able to cleanly rock on and off adjacent floor pedals, wider pedal spacing would be better for my ankle joint. As I recall geometry from many decades ago, wider pedal spacing would mean I wouldn't have to tilt my foot/ankle as much to achieve the desire pedal action.

My 83 Emmons has 2-7/16ths inch spacing. I know some older steels had wider pedal spacing; i.e., Emmons prior to the mid-70s, and older Sho-Buds.

Does anyone make new steels with wider spacing between the floor pedals?

Ian Rae · Post by **Ian Rae** » 28 Jul 2014 11:38 am

My old Sho-Bud copy has 2½" spacing which I've always assumed is some sort of standard.

If it was wider, yes, it might be easier to rock, but then it would take more movement to get from A&B to B&C or 5&6 to 6&7 etc.

And there might not be room for all the pedals you want.

Les Cargill · Post by **Les Cargill** » 28 Jul 2014 3:54 pm

My MSA Classic is also 2-1/2". Perhaps a pattern emerges?

Frank Welsh · Post by **Frank Welsh** » 28 Jul 2014 4:59 pm

Forgive my naive question, but are you talking about the space between the edge of one pedal and the edge of the next or are you referring to the center to center measurement?

My Carter U12 has about 1 and 1/2 inch space between the edges of the pedals and has made it a bit difficult to "dance" accurately on the pedals when I try to really get "universal" on the tuning by using all or most of the pedals. I wind up pressing adjacent pedals unintentionally.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 28 Jul 2014 5:07 pm

center to center

Frank Welsh · Post by **Frank Welsh** » 29 Jul 2014 3:44 am

Thanks. Those Carter pedals measure 2 1/2 inches center to center. I wish there was more room between them.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 29 Jul 2014 10:04 am

If they made pedal racks so that the pedals could be slid sideways you would be able to adjust the separation to whatever you wanted. Yes, I've noticed that my Sho-Buds have wider spacing that my other PSGs, but this pales by comparison to the problem of having to move your entire body to the right to work the C6 pedals.

Notice how car pedals always have rubber covering. Why don't pedal steels have rubber covering on their pedals?

Jan Viljoen · Post by **Jan Viljoen** » 29 Jul 2014 10:51 am

I also wondered about the pedal spacing, because I get gout sometimes in both ankles.

The doctor advised me not to jump and ride bicycle anymore, to prevent strain on the cartilage in the ankles.

So pedalling a psg and volume pedal?
And the rubbers that Alan mentions?

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 29 Jul 2014 12:22 pm

Simply doing the math, if you increase the distance between pedals by 1/4 inch (to 2&3/4 inches center to center), then you can only get 8 pedals in roughly the same space that 9 pedals at 2& 1/2 inch spacing fit into.

If you only play a single neck, then you most likely don't need 9 floor pedals, so wouldn't it be nice to get the pedal spacing that actually works best for you. If you play a D-10 with just the normal 8 floor pedals, same result.

I'll be sitting down behind a 1973 Emmons D-10 this Friday. I'm really curious what the pedal spacing will be, and how that feels if it is wider that my 83 Emmons.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 30 Jul 2014 8:05 am

I am presently working on a ZB guitar. The pedal spacing is approx. 2 1/2". There is a 3" spacing between the E9th and the C6th pedals.
I seem to remember that on the early Sho~Bud guitars, the E9th pedals were spaced closer together than the C6th pedals.
I have an Emmons p/p guitar that once belonged to Doug Jernigan. It has 11 foot pedals and, believe me, those are spaced quite close together.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 30 Jul 2014 9:05 am

With eleven foot pedals, how can you see which one you have your foot on without looking down? And even then, do you have to count from left or right?

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 30 Jul 2014 10:32 am

You'll have to ask Doug.

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 30 Jul 2014 2:54 pm

I had my PP pedals narrowed, my 1980 has Lagrand pedals on it, both work well as both guitars have the narrow spacing.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 1 Aug 2014 11:47 am

I'm just back from looking at and playing Brownie's 73 Emmons PP. Unfortunately it had even narrower pedal spacing than my 83 PP. I measured the 73 at 2 & 3/8 inches center to center. Plus it had the wider old pedals. I wasn't able to play the C6th neck so couldn't try two foot maneuvers, but I suspect it would be real easy to get tangled up.

But then Brownie pulled out his 84 Sho-Bud Pro I single 10. The pedals appeared to be really wide and that's how they felt, but actually they were just 2 & 1/2 inches center to center. The big difference is the pedals themselves were skinny. Sure felt different to my left foot.

I still want to locate an Emmons with wide pedals and wide pedal spacing to try out. Anyone in NorCal?

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 2 Aug 2014 2:07 pm

paul..next time you're downtown swing by my house in the afternoon if you want. i've got the purple p/p set up in the living room. i'm not playing lately so you can check it out with it's rusty strings if you want. spacing is about 2 7/8 i think. (almost 3 inches)

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 2 Aug 2014 2:13 pm

bring your own picks.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 2 Aug 2014 2:43 pm

"I get gout sometimes in both ankles."

Eat lots of tart cherries, and get the good, expensive, pure tart cherrie juice. Works wonders for my gout!

"If they made pedal racks so that the pedals could be slid sideways you would be able to adjust the separation to whatever you wanted. "

And have the pedal pull rods running at angles? I don't think that's a good idea. Straight pulls everywhere in the mechanism is the ideal. Seems to me you'd need to have sliding cross shafts too, to make that really workable. If you could only slide the pedals, the first pull rod would be straight up and down, the second pedal rod would be at an angle, and the third pedal rod would be at an even greater angle, and so on.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 2 Aug 2014 6:05 pm

Chris: Thanks for the offer. I just may take you up on that soon. I'll send a private message soon.

John: Straight pulls are ideal, but if a pedal could be moved just a 1/4 inch to 1/2 inch on the horizontal axis, given the length of the vertical axis (the pedal rod), would it really be such a problem? I'm no engineer, but it seems like it could be workable. A 1/4 inch extra space between pedals makes a big difference in how the pedals feel, particularly when playing two pedals with one foot.

I could envision spreading the E9 pedals as follows: p1 1/4 to left, and then p3 1/4 to the right.

The space between P3 and P4 could be reduced significantly (perhaps by as much as 3/4 inch), since you never play the 3rd and 4th pedals at the same time. This would be accomplished by moving P4 1/2 inch to the left of it's normal position, and P5 1/4 inch to the left. P6 would stay centered, P7 would be 1/4 to the right, and finally P8 would be 1/2 to the right.

The whole thing would be 3/4 of an inch longer than normal equal spacing from P1 to P8, but the spacing between each pedal would be increased by 1/4 inch.

This is, of course, assuming 8 floor pedals on a D10 or D12, with the first three exclusively used on the E9 neck, and the next 5 exclusively used on the C6th neck.

The only change would be to the pedal bar, and perhaps adjusting the length of the down rods as necessary, given the geometry. The cross shafts of the steel stay the same, as they must.

Why wouldn't this work?

Ronnie Boettcher · Post by **Ronnie Boettcher** » 2 Aug 2014 9:40 pm

If you want to change the spacing for good, you can always move the cross shafts to make the rods go up straight. Just drill a few holes and move them. If the pedals, or knee levers are not in the exact place that you want them, move them for your own comfort.

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 2 Aug 2014 10:00 pm

i'm pretty handy, but i don't think i'd try that on one of my old push pulls.

too much 'oops' factor.

getting a drill in at the correct angle might be difficult. that's an irresponsible suggestion in my book.

Fred Justice · Post by **Fred Justice** » 3 Aug 2014 12:30 am

Paul, our Justice guitars are 2-5/8 spacing, center to center.
I have some 9x9 guitars out there, 9 pedals fit very nicely.