12 String Universal players!

Bill Atwood · Post by **Bill Atwood** » 6 Nov 2002 11:48 am

After several months of working on my new 12 string U, I have come to the conclusion that there is advantage to having the string 4&8 knee changes on the right rather than the left. The builder of my guitar advised me that the left knee was "Standard" on the universal as well as a standard 10 string E9. I suspect that the majority of Universal players have the E changes on the right knee.
Let's conduct a straw poll of as amny universal players that will respond. Which knee do you have the E changes on? I'm curious, do any of you lower on the RKR and raise LKL?
I'll compile the response later on this thread. Thanks for your input.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 6 Nov 2002 12:10 pm

Lower E's on RKR.
Raise E's on LKL.

I ordered my first S12U, a Black Emmons push-pull, with Jeff Newmans S12U copedant (circa 1981), and started with his course "B6th Universal-Book 1", which shows the copedant as such.

LKV lowers B to Bb.
RKL brings 2 and 9 to D's.
No LKR.

I think he has changed it a little since then, adding D# to C# (string 2) to the E to Eb lever for B6th.

Dennis Boyd · Post by **Dennis Boyd** » 6 Nov 2002 12:14 pm

I have both of my E-string levers on the left which is how Sierra sets up the Universal (LKL E-F, LKR E-D#). I place these levers forward and as close together as possible for quick engagement.

Some people like to have them on separate knees so that the change from one to the other is immediate and smooth. This makes sense, but I like having the use of an extra knee lever by placing the E-string levers on the same knee.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 6 Nov 2002 12:24 pm

I've played Sierras that were set up that way, and can see the advantage (especially if that is what you are already used to).
On the Sierra S12U's I've seen that lower E's on LKR you can lock the E's to Eb and flip the lever up out of the way.
Good thinking!

Richard Gonzales · Post by **Richard Gonzales** » 6 Nov 2002 1:50 pm

Raise E's LKR, Lower E's RKR using a Day setup.

Sidney Malone · Post by **Sidney Malone** » 6 Nov 2002 2:27 pm

I raise E's LKL and lower E's RKL.

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 6 Nov 2002 2:39 pm

on my U12 I have the same as Mr Malone, which is really different than they were on my 10 Str E9 MSA or are on my 10 Str E9 on the ZB. both E raises and lowers are on the left knee on the 10 stringer.
(current) Zum U12, w Emmons ABC pedals: lkl=raise, rkl = lower
(current)ZB, w/Emmons ABC pedals: lkl = raise lkr= lower
(1974-1997) MSA, w/Emmons ABC pedals: lkl = lower lkr= raise

21st Century Schizoid Man[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 06 November 2002 at 02:40 PM.]

Randy Pettit · Post by **Randy Pettit** » 6 Nov 2002 3:05 pm

Lower E's on RKR; raise E's on LKL. I like the advantage of having no other obligation for my left leg, other than working pedals 4-7, when lowering the E's.

mickd · Post by **mickd** » 6 Nov 2002 3:21 pm

I have the Sierra S12 standard - LKL E-F, LKR E-D#. I have tried playing C6th mode without using the lock and yes, it is awkward holding down the LKR while reaching pedals 6&7, but I would hate to change now I've got used to this setup..

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 6 Nov 2002 3:43 pm

RKR= Ebs RKL= Fs

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 6 Nov 2002 3:47 pm

Malone setup.

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 6 Nov 2002 3:52 pm

Lower on RKR, raise on RKL,
I've been thinking lately that it might be useful to move the raise to LKL, and free up the RKL for a change the would apply to the B6th.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 6 Nov 2002 6:04 pm

My raise is on my LKL, and my lower is LKR. I tried putting the changes on different knees, but decided that I preferred them on the same knee.

I also have a second LKL that raises the 4th string to F#.

There really is no right or wrong you know. It's purely a matter of personal preference.

Jimmy Dale · Post by **Jimmy Dale** » 6 Nov 2002 7:42 pm

Right Knee Right and Left Knee Left. Jim Miller I'D RATHER BE STEELIN'

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 6 Nov 2002 10:50 pm

both on the left knee

norm mcdaniel · Post by **norm mcdaniel** » 7 Nov 2002 4:21 am

Both of my e changes are on my left knee. I have a Sierra U-12 with a lock that I dont use much but I love that Sierra.
Norm McDaniel
Sierra U-12
Pro-fex 11
Dpc 750 &2 Peavey B.W.s

Robert Todd · Post by **Robert Todd** » 7 Nov 2002 7:11 am

I raise on lkl and lower on rkr. I tried having both changes on my left knee, but could never et a smooth whole tone lower (I'd always hear the half tone stop) when I had them there. Now I can make that change sound just as smooth as the A pedal

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 7 Nov 2002 7:44 am

I raise my E's to F on the LLK and lower the low E to C# on my extended E9-E6, as Bobby Lee does.

I lower my E's to D# on the RRK, It gives more freedom to my left leg, for one thing.

I also would not do without my 9th string C# and pull it to a D on a knee lever, when I need it.

Here is my basic tuning now on my S12: I get the middle F# with a knee lever.

F#
D#
G#
E
C#
B
G#
E
C#
B
G#
E

It is a little different but it works for my style of playing........al

Gord Cole · Post by **Gord Cole** » 7 Nov 2002 1:14 pm

Lower=RKL
Raise=LKL

Regards.
--Gord

Danny Naccarato · Post by **Danny Naccarato** » 7 Nov 2002 2:05 pm

As a U-12 player, mine is RKL & RKR, raise & lower respectively. Aside from other reasons for placing here, I definitely feel that the E raise & lower should be on the same knee, as you never use them together.

Gary Sill · Post by **Gary Sill** » 7 Nov 2002 2:15 pm

LKL = E to F and RKL = E to E flat

john buffington · Post by **john buffington** » 8 Nov 2002 10:11 am

LKL = E's to F
RKL = E's to Eb

Tom Gorr · Post by **Tom Gorr** » 8 Nov 2002 10:16 am

RKR: E-Eb
LKL: E-F
(For that extra (A+B)ish move!)

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 8 Nov 2002 12:55 pm

"I definitely feel that the E raise & lower should be on the same knee, as you never use them together."

Interesting how we all come from different angles on this type of stuff!

I use these levers together all the time when playing out of the A+F position (F=E's raised to F).
I also have E to F# on a lever (RKL) which, combined with the other changes on that string, gives me a good deal of motion (my current setup has string 4(E) going from D to F#).
Fun Stuff!
[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 08 November 2002 at 12:56 PM.]

Bill Atwood · Post by **Bill Atwood** » 8 Nov 2002 2:02 pm

"Fun Stuff" und very interesting too! Also somewhat confusing!
I will compile the responses this evening and post a recap in the morning.
Right now, I am totally confused and will just leave my changes as they are until I can see "THE Light"