Finesse And Meter

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 6 Sep 2002 4:19 am

So much has been written of late about musical theory. Theoretically, if the theorist lacks expertise in performing with ultimate finesse and meter, then there should be an unlimited period of "pay your dues", which is a prerequisite, in achieving seemingly faultless performances.
I maintain that finesse, and meter remain as the greatest rewards for endless hours of practice.

Bill H.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 7 Sep 2002 4:08 am

Bill, you are so right. To me, this is what really "separates the men from the boys" when it comes to sounding good. It's not how many chords you can play, or how blazingly fast you are. I think it's the "technique" that actually makes you a standout player. The smallest of errors in your note timing and intonation can stick out like a sore thumb and actually do far more detriment to your reputation than any "equipment" you might be using. That which you term "finesse" (and a lot of players confuse with "tone") is still the most elusive part of sounding good on this instrument. Sad to say, there are some players out there with decades of experience and practice that still haven't "found it".

Chuck McGill · Post by **Chuck McGill** » 7 Sep 2002 4:16 am

Lloyd Green

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 7 Sep 2002 4:31 am

Donny H how come you come up so often w: the right answer ? always on the button

Finesse consists, for the time bein'+ in my case, of using the wrong notes i play, to my advantage.
Steel don't succeed each time tho'...
la Finesse, c'est Français.
Vive la Différence !

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 7 Sep 2002 4:47 am

Interesting Bill.....
I agree and think that this is pretty much a given. Of the two, which impacts more?

I can listen to a player who is not the smoothest, but someone who lacks timing drives me up a stump. Thoughts?

Rob van Duuren · Post by **Rob van Duuren** » 7 Sep 2002 5:49 am

I think timing's first. I don't care if I hear a flat or sharp note here and there, althoughyou work at that too. I compare it to
singing, some of the most famous "singers" are known mainly for their timing. Not neccesarely for singing so well in tune. I also have the impression we can recognise our favorite steelplayers because of the way they time, ie their attack. Also believe that if a person doesn't time very well, it will show in either fast playing or slow stuff. Working
three fingers, knees and feet at the same time, I think the pedalsteel is just too difficult by design for most of us. To sound natural and totally in control, one should play it very smartly, by skipping first as many kneemovements as possible, next feetmovements, and lastly the number of fingers. I'm beginning to believe this is how
Lloyd Green approaches it, perhaps unconcious. I admire him a lot.
Of course it's just a theory, but he does sound very good, while most musicians I listened to, and I refer mostly to those jazz-c6-lot-of-pedals-lots-of-notes-players, tend to have difficulties with their timing.
Unless they play singlenote licks, but then
the typical pedalsteelsound suffers, well anyway, that's how I feel. Repeating stuff over and over will help, you automize things,
leaving room to think a couple of notes ahead , rob.

Bob Hayes · Post by **Bob Hayes** » 7 Sep 2002 5:58 am

Bill,
You hit on it again.....Now I guess I'll go practice my timing and attack( grouping.s,picking,etc,etc,
You're ol' buddy from east Tenn

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 7 Sep 2002 10:00 am

Thanks for the responses. MSN has not shown me your replies. I've pointed this problem out several times, but to no avail. Please be patient, and they will post your messages, hopefully later today.

Bill H.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 7 Sep 2002 8:55 pm

MSN finally came through. Thank you for your replies. In the original post, I didn't refer to musical equipment, which should be selected to suit the instrumentalists needs, and which tend to bring out the very best of a player's abilities. The very thought of trying to perform on equipment that doesn't feel right, or falls short in producing the sounds that more than satisfy one's expectations, could prevent a performer from reaching levels of excellence.

The sounds that entertain both the player, and his/her listeners are worth searching for. The realization is quite apparent, that some of the much older amps , and guitars are sought after for this reason. The best equipment available, is lacking in some way, to motivate the discriminating steel guitarist. Chances are, you'll find them fumbling with the
settings at intervals, trying to create the sounds that are never to be found.

Bill H. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 08 September 2002 at 04:00 AM.]

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 9 Sep 2002 9:01 pm

I'm still learning and have a long way to go....but I agree. As time goes by I can hear an improvment in my complete sound. I always use a drum machine which helps.

Bob.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 10 Sep 2002 3:42 am

Bob C.

I appreciate your response, and agreement in the affirmative. I declare, your hometown is synonymous with the steel guitar in terms of congruity. I found that no other instrument offers so much diversity, or "surprises" in the course of advancement to new levels of expertise. I had originally thought that "Finesse And Meter" would be a great subject matter to delve into. Thank you for helping to keep the concept flourishing.

Bill H.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 10 Sep 2002 8:13 am

Donny H.,

Thank you for the opener message on the S.G.F., which in an unconstrained manner, one might say is akin to lobbing a huge cement ball into the midst of a sleepy, and carefree community, in an effort to rally input from others who may have similar feelings. I'll be lifting the rug in the future, where opinions are often hidden, in an effort to hear from others who may be tempted to speak out on this valid subject matter.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 10 September 2002 at 11:03 AM.]

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 10 Sep 2002 4:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Of course it's just a theory, but he does sound very good, while most musicians I listened to, and I refer mostly to those jazz-c6-lot-of-pedals-lots-of-notes-players, tend to have difficulties with their timing.
Unless they play singlenote licks, but then
the typical pedalsteelsound suffers,...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmm...

Where have I heard this before?

Rob van Duuren · Post by **Rob van Duuren** » 11 Sep 2002 2:30 am

Chris Forbes · Post by **Chris Forbes** » 11 Sep 2002 3:17 am

I can play my favorite lick (that's "the wrong note" lick) with perfect timing and finesse in any key or any song! Stand back, watch me screw up!!

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 11 Sep 2002 4:53 am

Rob Van D.,

Presuming that anyone who has progressed to a level of performance capabilities, would be aware of a sense of timing. For that reason alone, I would slow down, and consider the trite usage of an aging quote, "Fools rush in where wise men never go". I would like to consider that the finesse issue may have more significant relevance than the meter. An individual might base his contention on the truism that finesse is the acquired skill that promotes a sense of timing. A friend told me years ago that a well known steel guitarist (name on request}, once dropped his bar in the middle of a performance. He scooped it up with such dexterity, that his meter was not affected. To place one's foot in wet cement is not always the wisest course of action, should the stepper wish for some semblance of anonymity. Some musicians have preferences for the C6th tuning, while others prefer the sounds of E9th, much like bird watchers, who are fascinated by a songbird's trill, or the croaking of a swamp bird. Someone once stated that to eliminate a toe tapping habit while playing, would allow the player to be more in control of thought patterns. Your inferences on certain techniques to produce finesse and meter, includes fewer fingers while playing. I must disagree with you on this sensitive area of discussion. Over the years, I've developed what I call the "four and five string grab melody". This unique style has done much to improve my finesse and meter.

Bill H.
[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 11 September 2002 at 06:58 AM.][This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 11 September 2002 at 09:57 PM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 11 Sep 2002 9:11 am

"Croaking of a swamp bird"

(must be what i sound like)

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 11 Sep 2002 11:39 am

CrowBear S.

I don't believe anyone would care to digress from this thread, and become a reasonable fac simile of the American Bittern, when they make a hollow croaking or "pumping" sound, oonck-a-tsoonck. In fact I've never heard an imitation of the sound. Perhaps a tuba player might save the day, and come up with something. Steel guitars are out of this race.

Bill H.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 11 Sep 2002 3:05 pm

Thanks Bill for that...er...uhh... compliment!

Actually, I usually just say what I think. Whether people want to pay any attention or not is their own decision. I've been somewhat of a maverick and recluse most of my life, so "rallying support" has never been real big on my list.

I have been invited "out of retirement" to play in a steel jam in November, and hopefully I'll get to know a few more players then. I just wish someone had asked back when I could play! (LOL!)

Chris Forbes · Post by **Chris Forbes** » 12 Sep 2002 2:57 am

Do tell Mr. Hinson, is this jam in our neck of the woods? I'd love to hear you play.

George Kimery · Post by **George Kimery** » 12 Sep 2002 3:36 am

Many years ago, I heard someone say that it's not the notes that make great music, it's the space between the notes. I have also heard this expressed as letting your music breathe. This of course fits into timing and is a something to keep in mind as we tend to get bogged down in thinking notes, notes, notes and don't realize that maybe we are overplaying. The simplest notes in the right timing, played in the right spot does the trick. It's called taste and Lloyd and Buddy sure have it, as do most of the great pickers.[This message was edited by George Kimery on 12 September 2002 at 04:38 AM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 12 Sep 2002 4:20 am

most musicians I listened to, and I refer mostly to those jazz-c6-lot-of-pedals-lots-of-notes-players, tend to have difficulties with their timing.

Once again, I don't see how a player can be judged by his tuning of choice. There was a thread recently on "C6: The Cop-Out Tuning." b0b correctly nailed the concept as stupid and transparent flame bait. As stupid and transparent as if someone posted "E9 players are harmonic simpletons whose entire musical vocabulary and understanding are limited to endlessly going from a I chord to a IV chord and back again."

If a musician plays out of time or with lack of finesse, it has absolutely NOTHING to do with what tuning he's playing, or even what instrument he's playing... steel guitar, saxophone, piano, whatever. He's simply lacking in basic musicianship skills, which are intonation, timing, harmonic knowledge, and correct articulation of the note.

I teach quite a bit, and my wife frequently walks past my music room during lessons. If she didn't understand that most beginners with limited musical understanding and techniques start on the E9 tuning, she'd probably come to the conclusion that the worst players out there are E9 players, right? I mean, they're the ones that are screwing up all over the place in the lessons.

As a sidebar, if a player is described as being "tasteless," it's assumed that he has the technique/chops necessary to play tastefully but chooses not to for whatever reason; otherwise, he's just "bad."

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 12 September 2002 at 05:23 AM.][This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 12 September 2002 at 05:24 AM.]

Brad Burch · Post by **Brad Burch** » 12 Sep 2002 4:49 am

"E9 players are harmonic simpletons whose entire musical vocabulary and understanding are limited to endlessly going from a I chord to a IV chord and back again."

Thanks Herb, my jig is now up.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 12 Sep 2002 5:00 am

Brad
I hope you don't think I actually feel that way! :O

The first part of my statement was "As stupid and transparent as saying..."

Great music is made on ALL tunings, even the simplest, like straight G major. But its the player that makes the music, NOT the tuning.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Chris Forbes · Post by **Chris Forbes** » 12 Sep 2002 6:36 am

I agree with Herb, who cares what the tuning is as long as it's played well? Why bust chops about the C6th tuning because "it's hard to make a bad sound on"? Shouldn't the tuning be commended because someone with more sense than I'll ever have designed a tuning that makes it so?