C13th pedal

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 8 Sep 2002 9:19 pm

I was sitting at Bobby Bowman's house today thinking about how it's challenging to play some western swing stuff on a modern D-10 steel guitar because there's no way to get the inversions of the Leon McAuliffe E13th tuning on the E9th neck, and there's no low E as well.

Then I thought that if a pedal or lever on C6 raised #7 to D, raised #8 to Bb, and lowered #9 to E, the notes on strings 3-10 would be:

<pre>C
A
G
E
D
Bb
E
C</pre>

which would correspond with

<pre>E
C#
B
G#
F#
D
G#
E</pre>

of the E13 tuning.

The tuning would have a different timbre because of the differing string guages and lower notes. It would also have the benefit of an additional 3rd tone on string #2 and an additional 9th tone on #1.

Has anyone in the history of steel had this change on their guitar, basically turning a modern instrument into an "obsolete"

one? It might be useful for playing stuff like "Oklahoma Stomp," "Mr. Steel Guitar," and a bunch of Noel Boggs type material.

Or am I crazy?

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Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 8 Sep 2002 10:25 pm

Herb, I don't have that pedal but I do have the E13 tuning. It only takes one more neck.

Johnny

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 9 Sep 2002 12:29 am

Herb; 7 or 8 years ago, I was working a show that had Jett Williams as the feature. Don Helms was there and he was showing me something he had on his 6th neck. He called it a 13th and explained it to me but it has gone with the wind. All I recall is that it was a very beautiful change.

He also told me that day, how his father would take him to see Leon McAullife (sp ??) and how much Leon had influenced his early playing. I too was under the wing of Leon for a couple years and remembering all that dulled the memory of the tuning Don was showing me. If I had to guess, it was something like you are describing.

First it was Jody Carver and September Song ( I think I've already sent you a comment of mine on your version of this song...) and now you are TAKING IT AWAY with Leon. It's been a good day !!

Regards, Paul

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 9 Sep 2002 3:37 am

Herb,
I've got a P/P in the shop right now that has nine pedals. Wonder how hard that would be for the ninth pedal? That's a pedal I hardly ever use anyway so maybe that would be a plan.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 9 Sep 2002 4:59 am

Johnny
Yeah, but it's the three-neck guitar I'm trying to avoid...

You've got pedal changes on your tuning, dontcha?

Paul
I know Don's E13 is different from Leon's. Joaquin called his tuning "C# minor," but I'm not sure if he had a B note on string 3. "Take It Away Leon" is another classic for that tuning. Also "Panhandle," "GA Steel Guitar," etc.

Frank
I use pedal 4 the standard way, and after a trade or two now all my guitars except one are 8-pedallers. I guess Jerry Fessenden could add a pedal to my Fessy, because I think these changes could be a good use for a 9th pedal.

I tuned the strings up manually and farted around with the tuning for awhile yesterday. The 13th tuning as some adjacent-string slant positions that pedal steels have somewhat of a narrow spacing for, especially in the lower frets. Also, voicing the tuning in C gives it a darker sound than E due to the string guages.

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Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 9 Sep 2002 7:56 am

Herb, I do have pedals on the 13th but I find myself not useing them near as much as on my Bb6th. I know the sound your wanting to hear and I don't thing you'll get it on C6th, it's just tuned to low. One example that I use is the fact that I can play the same lick or solo on E13th as I do on C or Bb6th and get by with it when producers would tell me to lay off the very same thing on C6th.

Johnny

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 9 Sep 2002 10:16 am

I have it on my 1st pedal and the only time I use it is for 'Oklahoma Stomp' or 'Ya Ready' which we don't do any more.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 9 Sep 2002 11:39 am

Hey Herb. Another way to do it would be as an F13, which would preserve the high timbre. Assuming that your first string is G, imagine this pedal: <pre>
G F
E D
C
A
G
E Eb
C
A
F
C </pre>If you tune your first string to D, you're already there with the standard P6. It's just that the first two strings are swapped.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 09 September 2002 at 12:41 PM.]

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 9 Sep 2002 12:18 pm

Something Bob White diagramed out for me one night at Someplace Else, downtown Oklahoma City was a change beside his M7/M9 pedal, P-7 on most C6th setups. In addition to his whole tone raises on strings 3 and 4, he described raising string 6 a whole tone and seven a half tone. In the key of C with P-7 and this pedal you would have a G13th. I had a T-10 Marlen and my BW set-up was in the key of Bb as was his and this then would be an F13. Someone playing an A6th setup would have the original notes ( Well 7 of them at least...) in the chord of E13 as you have it shown.

The thing Don showed me wasn't on his E neck but the 6th neck, whatever key that was and it was a pedal change on a guitar built by Stadler but named something else.....

Regards, Paul[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 09 September 2002 at 01:21 PM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 9 Sep 2002 12:22 pm

B0b
Yes, I have a D on top, but your solution wouldn't work for my application because so much of the sound of this tuning is based on slant bar technique on strings 1 through 3. The notes must be stacked sequentially.

JC
I know what you mean about the voicing being too low to get the sound I'm seeking. I've got a T-8 Bigsby with an E13 and a PA Reissue w/2 10's and a non-pedal 8 in E13, but I wanted to have the tuning on a modern guitar. I may just blow it off and play the stuff I want wherever I can find it.

You and Joanie rocked in St. Louis incidentally.

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[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 09 September 2002 at 01:36 PM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 9 Sep 2002 7:19 pm

Herb-your idea is real good for that 13th sound. But it may be too low a sound as you figured. But I have an idea.

Why not tune your guitar to E6 instead of C6, use the same rotation of notes, same pedals and everything, Then use your pedal that you suggested only on E6 it will be the right sound and you have an actual E13.

For an old pro and great player like you, you probably wouldn't want to swap C6 for E6, but at least its the same bar positions as E9.

BTW I heard your "On the Alamo" on Steel Radio from St.Louis, and I must say, simply a great version. Also as they say "tone to the bone"......al

rhcarden · Post by **rhcarden** » 9 Sep 2002 8:37 pm

On my BMI 13 string, I have 2 pedals that I've been using at home. I havn't played it out yet, I prefer to play my old Emmons. On the E-9th I raise string 5 (B to C#) string 6 (G# to B) and string 7 (F# to G#) with pedal 6. With pedal 7 I raise string 3 to A and lower 7 to to G when use with pedal 6 (somewhere near F without pedal 6).

Pedal 6 = F#,D#,G#,E,C#,B,G#,E,D,b,G#,F#,E.

Pedal 6+7 = F#,D#,A,E,C#,B,G,E,D,B,G,F#,E.

All the knee levers for the E-9th work with these pedals.

I like this set up but i just can't get use to the guitar!

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Bob Carden 66 Emmons P/P 8/9
BMI 13 string 7/7