Tone schmone...

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 23 Aug 2002 3:58 pm

At first, I had this little rant in the post by Dag Wolf, but I removed it from there, and put it as a separate topic. I thought Dag might think I was unloading on him, so I've put 'em here, cause they're not aimed at one player, but on us players as a whole. I mean to help us all, and actually, it's more an "observation" than a rant...

There's a lot of factors in the equation of "tone" besides the steel. For instance, most all Emmons players I have heard like a lotta highs, a moderate middle, and very little bass. You just don't hear Emmons owners playing full, fat sounds. Now a lot of players will argue that "This is the character of the Emmons sound". Sorry, I ain't buyin' that.

I can play an Emmons p/p and make it like Chalker on his 'Bud, and so can anybody else. But, you need the right amp, and you have to know how to set it! Some of the stuff I've cut on my old stock plywood MSA sounds almost like Weldon...and we know what he plays!

It's my own humble belief that most all steelers spend FAR too much time worrying about their "tone". You see, I seldom hear complaints about various steelers (from other musicians, and studio guys) about someone's "tone".

I'll tell you the complaints I do hear, though...

"He's pitchy" (poor intonation)

"He plays too loud" (self explanatory)

"He overplays" (won't play simple stuff when it's called for)

"He's always tuning" (also self explanatory)

"He has no imagination" (he can't improvise anything)

"Not reliable" (shows up late, if at all)

"Has no confidence" (he worries about everything, and 'sneaks' into each ride and intro, or maybe just lacks experience)

"He has timing problems" (he learned with an hour glass instead of a metronome)

"He doesn't know music" (he has no technical knowledge, or, he has lousy taste.)

Sure, good tone is important...but it ain't worth a damn 'til you've licked these other 9 problems!!! We're bustin' our ass working on "tone", while everyone's laughing at our (lack of) ability.

Tone schmone...just play the damn thing!

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 23 Aug 2002 4:23 pm

I agree 100%.
I'll take substance over tone anyday.

What good is "That Tone" if it's somebody elses tone.

Break free of the Clone-Tone!

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 23 Aug 2002 4:36 pm

OK Donny, I guess this means I have all 10 licked? The only complaints I get are that I've parked in the producers parking place, and I won't laugh at the "Stars" jokes!(lost an account for that once)

Fred Jack · Post by **Fred Jack** » 23 Aug 2002 5:04 pm

Pete, what substance do you recommend??
regards, fred

B Bailey Brown · Post by **B Bailey Brown** » 23 Aug 2002 5:39 pm

Well said Donny! I also feel that the “tone” discussion comes up way to often, and is fairly meaningless when it does. As others have said, “tone” is far too subjective a thing to really pin down a right or a wrong, or a which and a why. With almost any steel guitar and any type of decent amp and modern day processing equipment (if you chose to go that route), almost any player should be able to achieve a tone that is pleasing to their own ears. What other ears hear…well, that is going to differ.

I also subscribe to the theory that much of the “tone” of any guitar comes from the technique of the player. Right hand, left hand, volume pedal…bla, bla, bla! I have heard some great players sit down at a guitar that I really didn’t think sounded that good and they sounded GREAT! I have also heard some mediocre players (myself included!) sit down at a rig that sounded wonderful and they sounded LESS than…well great!

Discussions about “tone” are kind of like the dog chasing his tail! I have seen some good answers, and I have seen some that made no sense at all. We just keep going around and around about it, but I have never seen an answer that “nailed” the entire subject. So what is my answer? Spend a little more time working with your equipment and on your technique…and a little LESS time on the forum “chasing your tail”!

B. Bailey Brown

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 23 Aug 2002 5:57 pm

I agree! As I've said many times before very recently, I've heard too many guys with the best equipment money can buy sounding like crap, other guys with equipment that's crap sounding like a million bucks. I'd say the answer is get the best equipment you can afford, what you think suits you best, then forget about it and just play. If you work on getting a great tone, eventually you will, no matter what you're playing on. Sometimes, and this has happened to me too -- a guy will get the best stuff and just expect it to sound fantastic with little or no effort. Another guy (I've been here too) can't afford great gear and buys stuff not exactly known for great tone or playability so he knows he has to really work at it. He'll go over the guitar and amp with a fine-tooth comb and get them fine-tuned, plus work on his technique for best tone. End result, the guy with crap sounds great, the guy with the best is counting on brand name and doesn't sound like anything special. I'm not saying this is always true, but I've seen it happen.

ebb · Post by **ebb** » 23 Aug 2002 6:58 pm

tone is intonation,rhythm,vibrato and all of those subtlities that come with confidence which comes from knowledge which comes from experience which comes from persistence which comes from love that trancends the tools to get there.

Kenny Dail · Post by **Kenny Dail** » 23 Aug 2002 9:41 pm

Hi Donny, You have pretty well hit it on the head so far as tone is concerned but, in defense of those that want a "better" tone let me say that as a performing musician, I can't play at my "peak" if I don't like what I'm hearing from my amp. In every playing environment I have ever been involved, I have had to tweek my adjustments to make it sound pleasing to my ear. And I have had to accept a less desired sound many times for the sake of getting thru the job. Also, let me add that I have been accused of all 9 of your complaints. The point being, can you play your best if you don't like what you are hearing? "To be or...not to be" is the question, or is it TONE.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

[This message was edited by Kenny Dail on 23 August 2002 at 10:46 PM.]

Don McClellan · Post by **Don McClellan** » 23 Aug 2002 9:56 pm

Bravo, Donny, I do agree. Thinking back, I'd say that just about every time I found myself in a situation where I had to either play through a different amp or use a beer bottle as a bar while playing someone's flat top guitar in a livingroom jam, I always made it sound pretty good to the other people there. I adjust my licks to the tone of the moment and that works most of the time.[This message was edited by Don McClellan on 23 August 2002 at 11:16 PM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 23 Aug 2002 10:13 pm

It might be good to remember that at least in my experience, I'm convinced that no guitar and no amp is going to sound great in every room. Different bands, rooms, sound engineers; separately or in combination, change the way you sound. I don't care how perfect your tone is now, next week in a different room it has a good chance of being something else and sometimes you can tweak your brains out and not get it the way you want it or have had it in some other situations.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 23 Aug 2002 11:51 pm

Hi, guys. I'm new to the list. I learned pedal steel in Nashville back in the '70s, didn't play for many years (back to school, new career, married, had 4 kids, divorced, etc.) and started playing again recently - strictly amateur. In discussing tone, you guys are talking about several different things. I was recently in Nashville at Bobbe Seymour's and played every steel he had (ShoBuds, Emmons, MSAs, GFIs, Fessy, etc.) plugging them all into the same amp with the same settings. An old Emmons P/P clearly had the best tone - hotter pickup, fuller sound, especially mids, and more sustain. I didn't sound like Buddy Emmons on it (and never will), but I had the best tone that I myself ever got out of a pedal steel. So for me that settles the question as far as guitars go. Now, maybe with the right pickup, amp and settings those other guitars could be made to sound close to the Emmons P/P. Also, unless you're hopping around in a room full of guitars like I was, or have someone next to you playing an Emmons P/P, probably no one will ever know the difference. Bobbe seemed to think you should be able to get any modern pedal steel to sound good, and advised me against getting the Emmons because I want to experiment with the copedent, and he said newer guitars would be much easier for that. So my bottom line is that the old Emmons are still the gold standard for tone, but there are lots of other things to consider. Finally, hitting the right notes with a good ear, good hands, and a smooth volume pedal foot are bigger problems for most of us than the guitar's innate tone.

jerry wallace · Post by **jerry wallace** » 23 Aug 2002 11:53 pm

Donny,Your 110% correct!! For once..Ok maybe three times..

BTW-I am a bit of a New Mexican/Texan Redneck..Whats a Schmone??

Really ,I could not agree more Donny.

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Jerry Wallace-2001 Zum: D-10,8+6, "98 Zum: D-10,8+8,Nashville 1000,Session 500 ,Session 400 head only amp,Tubefex,ProfexII, Artesia, New Mexico
http://communities.msn.com/jerrywallacemusic http://www.jerrywallacemusic.com

[This message was edited by jerry wallace on 24 August 2002 at 12:57 AM.]

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 24 Aug 2002 4:29 am

If I can't get a tone that pleases me, my playing suffers. It is difficult sometimes to get a good tone, depending on the ambience of the surroundings, but in my experience no one in the audience seems to notice. One other thing I will say: a bad-sounding guitar will always be a bad-sounding guitar, no matter where you play.

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 24 Aug 2002 6:34 am

Like Richard, I *have* to have good tone or my playing suffers(It suffers anyway

I've always been this way even way back on electric guitar. I must say that I always get complimeneted on my tone, FWIW.

It seems to me tho, that the great tone-masters are always the great players, too. So there is something to that?

Give me an example of one of our modern-day heroes that plays lights-out and has shi**y tone.

bob

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 24 Aug 2002 7:29 am

Yeah, but you can't just go buy a new set of hands.

-John

Larry Miller · Post by **Larry Miller** » 24 Aug 2002 10:11 am

and I won't laugh at the "Stars" jokes!(lost an account for that once)

Hey, Steel player, can I see you in the control room for a minute please!

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 24 Aug 2002 11:00 am

Richard Burton! Finally, a voice I agree with. Yes, Yes, Yes, thanks for saying it so well. Glad I didn't have to say it again. I keep saying what you just said over and over. Good to hear it from someone else. I want a "T" shirt with your post printed on it!!!!

Bobbe

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 24 Aug 2002 11:01 am

Bob Snellgrove, "DITTO"------->
Bobbe

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 24 Aug 2002 1:17 pm

Good point, Donny. I was showing off my different guitars and amps to a friend who has very good ears. Playing a little on each setup, I asked him which had the better tone. He said, "they all sound great". He could tell the difference between the guitars and amps, but his honest opinion was that its hard for me to get a "bad tone" from anything I own.

I agree with Donny that things like pitch, timing and musical knowledge are the most important aspects of steel playing. Tone isn't a big deal to the audience, or to any of the musicians that *I* work with. I've never once had a complaint about the tone of my guitar.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 24 Aug 2002 4:50 pm

.... most all Emmons players I have heard like a lotta highs, a moderate middle, and very little bass. You just don't hear Emmons owners playing full, fat sounds

To my ears its the strong and stable mids that make those PP's so valuable.

Tone is extremely important in the world I live in. If I can't get the sound I need out of a steel I move on right away.

Some guitars have it and others do not. You guys can say the pro's sound great on whatever steel all you want but from listening to the same guys playing the same stuff on different instruments on different years I can hear a big difference.
Each brand of steel has its own flavor and if that sound suits your ear than that is the guitar for you. Some guitars will pull you out of the mud in a loud stage situation and others that might sound thin in that scene will blend perfectly in a crowded pop mix.

Of course you need to be able to play the damn thing but if you think the timbre, sound , tone of the instrument doesn't matter than you aren't going to be paying many bills with your playing.

Bob

Reggie Duncan · Post by **Reggie Duncan** » 24 Aug 2002 9:22 pm

I play the same PP and same amp in the same restaurant 98 times a year. I sound different every night.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 25 Aug 2002 5:04 am

earwax.

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 25 Aug 2002 6:13 am

as far as tone goes, I would refer to the comments made by 2 pros who have had an immense effect on my musical thought processes & playing. The first is Jerry Byrd..."if you only play one note, play it to a persons heart, with all the sweet tone & emotion youre capable of..."
the 2nd fellow shall remain nameless...his take was,"tone?..either you have it or you dont.."

I believe that there is a certain technique (different for everyone)
that allows one to transcend the boundaries of wood, steel & wire to express their musical spirit in such a way that, (esp.on the psg), a certain "tone", common to all proficient players is projected... & thats when the "sh*t eating grin" appears

Who out there hasnt hit it just right one night & felt like a rookie the next?
In my head, that "tone" seems to consist of an even balance of lows, mids & highs with pleasing harmonic overtones & sustain, punctuated by a clean crisp attack; all of which is delivered with a sense of humor...but thats just mho....

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 25 Aug 2002 3:54 pm

First: I've played a number of p/p Emmons. Never thought I sounded good on any of them.
Second: Some is in the inherent sustain of the guitar (wood/metal combo) but most is in the player's hands.
I built my own steel. It sounded like crap. No sustain, and really "thin." Then I got the Kline. I put "The Steel" away and played the Kline for about 10 years.
When I first went to NZ I brought the Kline with me, realizing I had another steel in the states I could use when I went back.
So I went back and took out "the Steel." It had all the sustain I wanted, and lots of fullness. Took it to Scotty's and played it, and it sounded great.
What had changed? 10 years of learning how to play.

Winnie

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 25 Aug 2002 4:29 pm

ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz