Anyone AGAINST using a Twin for PSG?

Atom Schmitt · Post by **Atom Schmitt** » 8 Jan 2014 8:49 am

So lucky me, I just discovered there's a giant rip in my Webb's speaker cone (which probably explains why I've been having issues with it the last month or so). I'll get it fixed and/or replaced eventually, but between now and then I have gigs to play so I think I'm going to use a '68 Twin. I like it okay so far with steel - and love it with a Tele - but haven't tried it on stage at gig volume with the steel yet. Still, can't imagine it wouldn't work. Should I have any reservations whatsoever about this? My gut says no.

Jack Hanson · Post by **Jack Hanson** » 8 Jan 2014 8:55 am

One of the best amps ever made. You will probably have to reset the tone controls. More bass and less treble. Ever listen to Charley Pride at Panther Hall? Many people use that as a benchmark. Lloyd Green with his old 'Bud through a rented Twin Reverb.

David Cubbedge · Post by **David Cubbedge** » 8 Jan 2014 9:17 am

It was explained to me by a local Fender amp guru that the best way to run a Twin with a PSG is to put the master volume at 10 and adjust the channel volume accordingly. This guy also told me Fender made the Twin originally specifically for PSG players, giving them clean, loud sound.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 8 Jan 2014 9:29 am

I used to use one.

The only knock I have is the weight.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 8 Jan 2014 9:43 am

Try these tone settings if you want the twin to give you an even/balanced tone.

brite: off
Treble: 3 or 4
mids: 10
bass: 3

this is a basicly flat setting that I find the most useful for steel.

The tone settings that are often suggested for steel result in artificial lows that create mud and are not even audible 10 feet from the amp, a dip in the lower mids and an annoying spike right around 2K that will get you pulled out of the mains by any soundman paying attention.

Many steel players like that twangy sound and it can work for some. I guess I don't....

Watch out for that 2k spike. Twins are maybe the all around best (IMHO) standard amp ever for steel but they sometimes need a little finesse.

Atom Schmitt · Post by **Atom Schmitt** » 8 Jan 2014 11:10 am

Can't say I mind the weight - it's hardly any heavier than the Webb with that K130 in there anyway. I thought it'd be worse, so I guess I've got that going for me.

My only concern was that maybe it wouldn't play well (particularly in the headroom department) with the humbucking pickup I have on my Williams because that's been a little tricky with the Webb (at first, anyway, although I think by now I finally have it pretty well dialed in). Okay, I guess that's silly, worrying about headroom with a Twin. But there's a lot more midrange coming from the Williams than my Pro I, for example. And I can get away with using a little more treble than I can with the Bud.

I've got a set of George L E66 pickups in my Sho-Bud Professional... I bet that would mate well with the Twin too. They seemed to aggravate the ripped cone the last couple times I paired that guitar up with the Webb, which made me wonder about it at first, although it sounds fantastic at home through my Mustang I on the 65 Twin patch. Go figure.

You know... I'm kind of excited to try this. It's been a while since I played a pedal steel gig using anything but the Webb. I had a high power tweed Twin (Victoria 80212) for a while that I'd use with a reverb pedal, but that's long gone now... although I kind of wonder if I'd find more use for that now than I did when I got rid of it. Then again, it turned into the most incredible Tele I've ever played, so I guess all is not lost.

Jack Aldrich · Post by **Jack Aldrich** » 8 Jan 2014 11:53 am

Ralph Mooney used a twin on his recordings with Buck Owens. Back in 1977 I asked him what settings he used, and he said "Turn everything to 10 and control it with your volume pedal". My kumu mele, Alan Akaka, uses a Twin on all his recordings on non-pedal steel, btw.

Olli Haavisto · Post by **Olli Haavisto** » 8 Jan 2014 1:18 pm

If the headroom is an issue, try the 2nd input (padded) and put the channel volume pretty high like John says and control the amp with your volume pedal. I like it around 6 or so...

Jim Cooley · Post by **Jim Cooley** » 8 Jan 2014 3:19 pm

The classic steel amp. I use a Silverface Twin. One thing to keep in mind is the Fender tone stack. The treble setting affects the mids, and the Mid setting affects the treble and bass.

Depending upon pickup, pedal, speakers and room, I generally set my bass between 3+ and 4; treble between 4 and 6, and mids from 0 to 2. However, my chassis is in a head cabinet and I play through either a 12" or 15" speaker. You might have to boost your bass and cut the treble with 2 x 12" speakers.

Bob Hoffnar's settings are interesting. I'll have to experiment with them.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 8 Jan 2014 4:08 pm

Some of the most legendary sounds ever made on the pedal steel guitar were thru Fender Twins. Like Jack mentioned, Lloyd Green's tone on Charlie Pride's "In Person" - live at Panther Hall was thru a rented 1968 Twin with JBL's. Lloyd still claims it's about the best sound he ever got.

I believe that Buddy Emmons' Black Album was thru a Twin Reverb with stock speakers.

That should help answer your question.

B

Chris Boyd · Post by **Chris Boyd** » 8 Jan 2014 4:23 pm

I use a '69 Dual Showman Reverb .. a twin in a head.. a 15" EPS15C in a Fox cab.. Great amp!

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 8 Jan 2014 6:05 pm

I used a Twin with a Humbucker for years with no problem

you'd be amazed at how loud 80-100 watts is on a tube amp - and you don't have to worry about distortion because unlike a solid state amp, you are going to think it sounds good until it gets to be very thick. But your head will be caved in by that point by the volume anyway

Jack Aldrich · Post by **Jack Aldrich** » 8 Jan 2014 7:43 pm

I want to add that I am gigging on pedal steel using a Peavey Classic 30, which has the sound of a Twin without the weight. Modern sound systems are good enough to reproduce the Twin sound without needing the power.

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 8 Jan 2014 8:33 pm

the classic 30 may be a decent amp - but there's no way El84 tubes will ever sound like the quad of 6L6 tubes used in a Twin power supply. The classic 30 uses 4 of them for 30 watts as opposed to the Twin which ranged from 85-135W from four 6L6 tubes. Thats the sound!

In fact, there's not a single amp that Leo Fender designed that uses EL84 tubes. There's one amp that uses a similar 6AQ5 but its an oddball in the Fender lineup.

That said, some newer Fender amps use EL84 but they are generally considered to be fairly useless for pedal steel. Simply not enough headroom and power.

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 8 Jan 2014 11:22 pm

I loved the sound of my Twin back in the 80s, a silverface with extra heavy JBL speakers. But: It got hot enough to fry an egg on, it weighed over 100 lbs, it produced annoying intermodulation distortion that is absent in solid state amps, and it needed frequent and costly servicing to keep from humming loudly.

So I swapped it for a Roland JC-120, which solved all those issues and sounded about 95% as good. But I still miss that Twin sparkle.

Steven Paris · Post by **Steven Paris** » 9 Jan 2014 1:47 am

So, Tim: I've always wondered why 80 watts on a tube amp is so much louder than 80 watts on a solid state amp?

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 9 Jan 2014 7:54 am

It has to do with the way the signal clips in the amplifier

In a solid state amp, this can not be permitted at all so it takes much more power to get a thick sound. Clipping a solid state amp sounds awful so they are often designed not to clip at all under any circumstances.

In a tube amp, a few waveforms can be cropped here and there and you won't even hear it. That allows for a big compressed sound which seems louder, but with less power. Similar to how a record seems louder after it's been "mastered". Compression is the key.

Also, don't be fooled - 85W is not that much less power than 200W. Power scales in factors of ten - so 850W is twice as loud as 85W.

As far as intermodulation is concerned, that can easily be designed out of a tube amp. Remember that the Twin was ultimately still designed for guitar - with a few careful modifications you can lose the ghost note and still have a gorgeous and powerful sounding amplifier

Atom Schmitt · Post by **Atom Schmitt** » 9 Jan 2014 9:21 am

Well, I'm glad to see nobody thinks this is a silly idea.

I've been using vintage Fenders for years, and almost landed on a Twin a few years back when I was playing guitar with a guy who used a 100W Two Rock (cranked up, LOUD). Lately even for guitar I've been having a lot more fun with slightly higher-wattage amps than I've historically gravitated toward.

I'm starting to think the only problem this Twin is going to present for me is that I'm going to be torn between using it for guitar and using it for steel.

Jack Hanson · Post by **Jack Hanson** » 9 Jan 2014 10:14 am

Atom Schmitt wrote:Well, I'm glad to see nobody thinks this is a silly idea.

I've been using vintage Fenders for years, and almost landed on a Twin a few years back when I was playing guitar with a guy who used a 100W Two Rock (cranked up, LOUD). Lately even for guitar I've been having a lot more fun with slightly higher-wattage amps than I've historically gravitated toward.

I'm starting to think the only problem this Twin is going to present for me is that I'm going to be torn between using it for guitar and using it for steel.

Perfect amp to pull double-duty. Tele into one channel, steel into the other. There are mods to make the reverb available on both channels, if that is a major concern. Or, use a reverb pedal. Many folks prefer their stomp boxes to the stock Fender reverb.

Chris Rice · Post by **Chris Rice** » 9 Jan 2014 10:28 am

Tim Marcus wrote:In fact, there's not a single amp that Leo Fender designed that uses EL84 tubes.

6G9 Tremolux used 6BQ5/EL84 power tubes briefly.
http://www.thevintagesound.com/ffg/tremolux_blonde.html

Tom Wolverton · Post by **Tom Wolverton** » 9 Jan 2014 10:37 am

Has anyone ever tried the Mercury Magnetics ToneClone Plus OT in a twin reverb? If so did it improve the available clean headroom?

Dan Beller-McKenna · Post by **Dan Beller-McKenna** » 9 Jan 2014 12:06 pm

Bob Hoffnar's observation about the difference between how the amp sounds up close and then just a moderate distance away is a good one (but true of a lot of amps, no?). Bring the mids up higher than you might think sounds right on stage; it will help cut through the mix a lot. I use to turn them off completely; sounded better that way at home. But I've learned to bring them up considerably and also to cut back on the bass. Bob Metzger has some very useful advice on these matters. There are also issues of how much power you draw from these settings, but that's gets into stuff that's way over my head: I just know what has sounded right and worked in live settings for me.

Atom Schmitt · Post by **Atom Schmitt** » 9 Jan 2014 12:15 pm

Jack Hanson wrote:
Atom Schmitt wrote:Well, I'm glad to see nobody thinks this is a silly idea.

I've been using vintage Fenders for years, and almost landed on a Twin a few years back when I was playing guitar with a guy who used a 100W Two Rock (cranked up, LOUD). Lately even for guitar I've been having a lot more fun with slightly higher-wattage amps than I've historically gravitated toward.

I'm starting to think the only problem this Twin is going to present for me is that I'm going to be torn between using it for guitar and using it for steel.
Perfect amp to pull double-duty. Tele into one channel, steel into the other. There are mods to make the reverb available on both channels, if that is a major concern. Or, use a reverb pedal. Many folks prefer their stomp boxes to the stock Fender reverb.

I've thought about this. I'm not sure that volume-wise I run my guitar amps and my steel at the same level, though - and sound guys hate that if you're running both through the same channel. I did this with a modeler for a few months a while back and it was a frustrating experiment sometimes. I tend to get forced to do more baffling, etc. with the guitar amp so the pedals (drive pedals especially) interact with it properly without me having to take anyone's head off with volume. Plus there's just the perception that electric guitars are loud no matter what level you're playing them at. I haven't gotten as much flak with the steel for my volume as I would with a Tele.

As for reverb, I never use amp reverb anymore, mainly just because every now and then I get stuck on a hollow-ish stage and the thump of the kick drum shakes the pan. I also really prefer plate reverb for steel, so I just use a Dr. Scientist Reverberator. That's my secret weapon on the steel, really.

Anyway, for those using reverb pedals and Fender amps, it's worth noting that there's one less gain stage on the normal channel, so if you're looking for headroom, that's a better option to plug into. I didn't feel like lugging two amps to a rehearsal the other night, so I ran the PSG into the normal channel and the Tele into the vibrato channel. Good stuff all around, although normalizing volume did turn out to be a bit tough.

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 9 Jan 2014 1:26 pm

Chris Rice wrote:
Tim Marcus wrote:In fact, there's not a single amp that Leo Fender designed that uses EL84 tubes.
6G9 Tremolux used 6BQ5/EL84 power tubes briefly.
http://www.thevintagesound.com/ffg/tremolux_blonde.html

That's the one exception that I mentioned nice find!

Marty Broussard · Post by **Marty Broussard** » 9 Jan 2014 1:41 pm

Hey guys two quick questions:

Are the Twin Reverb and Super Reverb the same circuitry with Twin having more power ?

Are both channels the same with just effects added on one?

Thanks!!