Revelation Preamp and MX-200 HELP!!!!

[Rick Campbell]

I have just purchased a Revelation preamp and Lexicon MX-200. I have the Dave Beaty steel guitar presets in the MX-200. I cannot seem to get enough of the effects signal. Can anyone give me some advice on how I should set this up? I'm playing through the preamp in on the back of my Nashville 112. I sent Brad Sarno a detailed email through his website about a week ago and didn't get any response. Anyone that can provide some advice I will certainly appreciate it.

[Ray DeVoe]

Hi Rick

One thing that I can tell you is that when running through the Revelation's effect loop, the effect unit must be set 100% wet. You use the effects blend control on the front of the Revelation to control how much effects are added. Also, not all effect processors work well with the Revelation preamp.

I have used Revelation preamps ever since Brad developed them. Two units that do work well with the Rev are the TC M 350 or TC M one which is what I am currently using.

If you cant get your effects set to 100 % in order to make it compatible with the Rev, you may need to run the effects unit in between your preamp and power amp.

That's about all I can add. I'm sure Brad will jump on here when time permits. He is a very busy guy.

Ray DeVoe

[Rick Campbell]

Thanks Ray! I am running the effects unit 100% wet. I might have something hooked up wrong. The tone I'm getting is nowhere near as good as with just an RV-3. Any suggestions on the Revelation settings? I will buy a different effects processor if that's what it takes to get this working right. Seems like I read somewhere that the MX200 and Revelation don't get along too well together. I'm open to ideas from you experienced guys. Thanks!

[Ray DeVoe]

Hi Rick

I am using the 3 cord setup as pictured below. The TC Electronics M One is being run in the Revelations rear effects loop. I use the Revelation's standard preamp outs then to run either 12" or 15" Furlong splits.






My basic settings are pictured below.




As a note, you can always use the effects unit in the signal chain between the preamp out and the power amp in. You just do not have as much control over the blend when you do this.

The Revelation is a terrific preamp. I'm sure that you will be happy with it once you get the system set up as needed.

Ray DeVoe

[Rick Campbell]

I'm using the three wire hookup. I did try putting the MX-200 in series between the Revelation and the amp. I know the effects loop circuitry in the Revelation is somewhat unique and is not compatible with some effects processors. I would like to know which ones ARE compatible and I'll try to locate one ASAP. I hope Brad will chime in on this.

[Dennis Detweiler]

There's also an effects signal control on the back of the Rev. It needs to be full on.
I'm using the M-350 with no problems. I also have a Hall Of Fame that works well connected through the effects loop, but it's a stomp box.

[Rick Campbell]

Yes, I have the control on the back running wide open.

[Dennis Detweiler]

Well, shazam! Might have to wait on Brad. He'll know. My guess, a more friendly processor?

[Tony Glassman]

I use the Lexicon MX 200, with the Rev + Stewart World 1.2 amp. It works perfectly.

[Paddy Long]

How about the routing on the Lexicon, I think it needs to be set to parallel ??

[Dennis Detweiler]

Then it must be the way the 200 is patched or routed? Is there a signal boost button on the back of the 200? 6db or 10db? I'm not familiar with the unit.

[Rick Campbell]

Then it must be the way the 200 is patched or routed? Is there a signal boost button on the back of the 200? 6db or 10db? I'm not familiar with the unit.

Dennis- not that I'm aware of.

[Brad Sarno]

Hey Rick. Sorry man, I got your email and began a reply, but just got distracted and left it unfinished.

But, this is a good conversation to have regarding the MX-200 and it's use in preamps with parallel effects loops.

The short of it is that the MX-200 is not suited for this kind of job. It has to do with the way the MX-200 handles it's wet/dry control for each effect. For each of the two effects, delay & reverb, the MX-200 lets you have each at 100% effect, but when you wish to turn down either the reverb or delay level, it only lets you do it by blending in some dry signal, a setting at less than 100% wet, but NOT simply turning down the level of the 100% effect.

With parallel loops, we want our signal coming from the effects unit to be effect only, NO dry guitar signal. To my knowledge, with the MX-200, the only way to have both reverb and delay 100% wet is to have each effect set to 100%. If you want just a hint of delay and mostly reverb, when you try to turn down the delay, you are actually blending in some dry signal. This is why the MX-200 is not on the list of compatible effects units when using preamps with parallel loops.

What we need in an effects unit is one that lets you run reverb & delay in "parallel" and also have each set at 100% wet, AND ALSO be able to control the actual level of each effect. The TC units and the MPX-1 and maybe some others can do this routing and level control.

I know people have gotten away with using the MX-200 in parallel loops, so it's not impossible, it's just not ideal. The routing should be set to "parallel" in the MX-200, and whichever effect you want the loudest, reverb or delay, set that one at 100% effect only. Then adjust town the wet/dry mix of the other effect to where the blend seems right. You may not be bothered by the phase problems that come with some bleed of some dry signal from the MX-200, so it may work out just fine in the end.


Brad

www.sarnomusicsolutions.com

[Rick Campbell]

Brad, Thank you! I understand your explanation. I think I'll go for a TC unit of some sort.

[Brad Sarno]

I do like the M-One.

The older version has 1/4" ins and outs and is easier to work with. The more common and newer version is the M-One XL and really the only difference is that it uses XLR ins and outs, so you have to make 1/4" to XLR cables to connect in and out of it to the Rev preamp.

XLR's would tie pins 3 and 1 together. The 1/4" end should be a normal, tip-sleeve guitar type plug.

Brad

[Tony Glassman]

Here's how I hook up the REV and MX200. Excuse it being upside down. The rotation function on my SGF image-upload is not working for whatever reason.

Basically, I'm sending out stereo from the Lexicon-->Revelation, but return is mono. Sounds good to me. I have no problem mixing the reverb and delay individually to taste.

I tried one of the TC Electronics units initially, but found it to sound sterile......couldn't get past that.

[Dennis Detweiler]

Looks like the correct patching, but send is mono and return is stereo. Same as my TC-350.
I also have a M-300, but the 350 has upgrades and sounds more lush and more controllable.

[Brad Sarno]

Tony,

that looks to me like a stereo return back into the Rev. You should be getting true stereo reverb that way.

And yes, I understand that in practice people have been ok with the MX-200 used in parallel loops. And again, if your delay and reverb levels are both even and set to 100% wet, there's no issue at all. It's only when one of the two effects is brought down to less than 100% wet that the unwanted "dry" signal gets introduced to the scenario.

The main issue with digital effects units is that the "dry", unaffected signal that comes out of them is just slightly delayed because it had to go thru a digital computer processor, and that takes a few milliseconds to do. So when that slightly delayed "dry" signal comes back into the Rev's FX return and gets blended with the real-analog "dry" signal inside the Rev, the combining of the original and the "late" digital-dry signal can cause weird sounding, phasey, comb-filtered artifacts that are undesirable. But, in general and with good hot levels going to and from the Lexicon, those artifacts are gonna be real low and often unnoticed. But they're there, and for me, knowing that the artifacts are there just bugs me a bit.

So, it's a purist idea wanting the technically ideal signal routing and effects blending which the MX-200 just won't provide, but as you've found, in practice it's perfectly passable and the ugly artifacts are so quiet they go unnoticed.

B

[Tony Glassman]

Brad, thanks for the explanation.

Fortunately , I've never had that "comb-sound" issue. The individual effect levels are adjust at the processor. while the overall level can be adjusted at the Rev or on the MX200.

I can't remember how I have the FX stacked in the Lexicon, but there are 4 - 5 ways to do it, each with dramatic adjust-ability, shaping and tone implications.

[Rick Campbell]

Thanks guys! I found a TC Electronics M One today and that did the trick. Now I have to define some good presets. Anyone have any info?????

[Brad Sarno]

In the TC reverbs, the Hall and Plate types have a lot to explore. Do spend some time tweaking the "pre delay", that amount of time that passes before the reverb sound starts. Generally, pre-delay settings under 40ms are so short that the reverb sounds "attached" to the guitar signal. That can make the guitar sound distant or far-away if you go too wet. But, if you lengthen the pre-delay time to around 65ms or on up to 100ms, that "detaches" the reverb sound from the guitar signal just enough so that the guitar comes back closer to you and the reverb can be strong at the same time. That's a critical parameter to explore with guitar and steel guitar reverbs. I tend to put pre-delay times around 80ms or so with pedal steel. I can get away with a pretty wet, reverb-y setting and the guitar itself still sounds near and up-front.

And also spend some time getting the early reflections nicely balanced with the reverb itself. It takes some close listening to really hear what's going on. TC reverbs are great when you dial them in. Lexicon reverbs are famous for being instantly inspiring and don't take as much fiddling to get a big, dreamy reverb sound. But TC gives Lexicon a run for their money with regards to realism. You just have to get a handle on all the parameters and really get them set right. You can't beat the TC when it comes to ease of control. SO easy to navigate and tweak and create settings.


B

[Dennis Detweiler]

What Brad said!
There are no parameter readouts on the M-350, so I did all tweaking by ear. I use the TC Hall on some reverb settings and Cathedral on others. Predelay on max, but I have no idea what ms it may be?
I added some compression to reverb on a couple of settings. I have more presets to go to depending on room ambience, fast or slow song, studio or live. Then fine tune the amount with the Rev effects control. It takes some time to establish presets, but it's quick to tweak with one knob on the Rev.

[Ray DeVoe]

Hey Rick.

I am out on a business trip until Wednesday but if my memory serves me right, check out # 71 on the factory stored programs. If thats the right number, I beleive it will be a delay on one engine and a hall reverb on the other. Its usuable just as is without tweaking for a good starting point.

Let me know if I am correct

Ray D

[Rick Campbell]

Hey Rick.

I am out on a business trip until Wednesday but if my memory serves me right, check out # 71 on the factory stored programs. If thats the right number, I beleive it will be a delay on one engine and a hall reverb on the other. Its usuable just as is without tweaking for a good starting point.

Let me know if I am correct

Ray D

Ray,

My #71 is "vintage plate and spring" .... two reverbs. You must be thinking a different one. I'm on business trip tonight thru Wednesday...... Earning a living interferes with my music quite often, but have to pay for these toys some way. LOL

[Tony Glassman]

Brad, you bring up an excellent point re: pre-delay.

Without that brief delay, the sting attack is obscured by reverb and you lose the initial percussiveness which makes the guitar "stand-out"