Poll: 'The Switch'

[Hans Holzherr]

This poll is to research the desirability of the mechanical switch described in this thread: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... 112ac2e499, and quoting myself, my invention is “a mechanical switch that provides a second set of changes to any pedal or knee lever, without the necessity to do invasive changes to the guitar such as drilling holes in the body, or adding or exchanging crossrods etc. The actual operating switch of the whole assembly toggles between these two sets of changes and is mounted to the crossrod of the respective pedal or lever. That means the switch has to be operated without eye control, but with everything else with playing this instrument, muscle memory takes care of that, with the switch sticking out of the array of bellcranks a little to aid switching.”

I terms of pricing, since there is no such thing as a switch to compare it to, the next best thing perhaps is a banjo Keith tuner whose parts are simpler to maufacture than the ones of my switch, and which is currently 220$ a pair, also in stainless steel.

Thanks for participating, and thank you for your feedback!

Hans

[chris ivey]

i'd have to see a picture to really understand the concept.

[Lane Gray]

So basically, for instance, one could toggle between a Franklin drop and the 1&2 raise on P0?
If I could think of uses for it, I'd consider it.
The big drawback that I see is that, even with guitars with differing copedents, I KNOW what the levers do without thinking about it (that is, I don't have to think to drop Es: I move LKR reflexively for instance), and having to think "now, which change is on that lever" would interfere with playing, but could probably be lived with.
The flexibility has an appeal, but there does seem to be a cost with it.

[Jon Light (deceased)]

Hans--I, too, need a better understanding before I can answer the poll. I've read the first thread and I'm still a bit fuzzy. But intrigued. I'd love to see photos of your prototypes.

Does 'pair' mean the hardware for two cross shafts?

[Douglas Schuch]

Hans,

Steel Guitar players, just like most other musicians, are probably more conservative than they think they are, and tend to stick with what has worked before. Look at how many players still prefer Push/Pull and older Sho-Bud instruments - both 40 years old or so. But, obviously, given time, a good idea does catch on.

If I developed such a device, I think I would approach a top player, like Paul Franklin, and ask if he was interested in beta-testing it. Not only would his use of it spark interest, he also has the creative musical mind to figure out some pretty neat uses, and as a session player, I think he would be interested in having the option to get some new sounds without giving up what he already has.

I clicked "yes" - not that I have a pressing need for this at the moment - I have my hands full learning to use what I have. But it seems more flexibility can only help better players get more from their instruments.

Good luck with the invention.

Doug

[Hans Holzherr]

Jon, 'pair' refers to the pair of Keith tuners, not to my device. Keith tuners are sold in pairs.

I can understand your requests to see pictures, but please understand that I cannot post photos that disclose HOW the switch does what it does as long as the device is not protected..... These pictures will have to do.
They show the switch installed in my packed S-12 Uni Carter on the crossrod of the LKR lever which is in the state of being fully engaged for both pictures. This is the switch in its most simple configuration: Change 'set' A consists only of one change (8th string E to D), and so does change 'set' B (9th string B to D), and these changes happen to be on adjacent strings, so the whole assembly looks fairly compact. Also, I placed the operating switch closest to the rest of the assembly to save parts and cost, but it could be placed anywhere on the crossrod where there is room. The rationale behind the use of the switch in this manner was that I wanted BOTH of these changes, but I didn't have a knee lever to spare for the 9th string D change.

In the top right corner of both pictures you can see a Carter bellcrank which lowers the 2nd string to D regardless of what position the switch is in. I am calling this an invariant bellcrank. Since this bellcrank is located outside the switch assembly, the original bellcrank can be used. If an invariant bellcrank was located INSIDE the switch assembly, for instance between two switching bellcranks, or between a switching bellcrank and the operating switch, the original bellcrank could not be used, and a bellcrank compatible with the switch would have to be installed instead.

This brings me to a technical issue which became apparent in this Carter guitar, namely that the D on the second string is not exactly the same for both switch positions, the reason being that pull A exerts a force on the body which is slightly different from the force caused by pull B, resulting in a slightly different 'cabinet drop', or bend of the changer shaft and/or crossrod. In case the differing 'D's are intolerable, the only solution I see would be to incorporate the 2nd string lower in the switch, that is, treating it like two different changes, although both changes would produce a D on the 2nd string, but this time, separately and accurately tunable. Unfortunately, this would 1) require an additional vacant hole in the lowering finger (no problem on this Carter), 2) make the assembly a little more expensive, as the price would be calculated on the number of parts used.

Douglas, thanks for your thoughts. You are right, having a top player who endorses the idea would help tremendously.

[chris ivey]

so...if you have two separate bellcranks with different functions on one crossrod, the switch will allow one or the other to be activated by the crossrod manually?

[Jon Light (deceased)]

.....but please understand that I cannot post photos that disclose HOW the switch does what it does......

Of course----I understand completely.

I have a much better understanding now. Thanks.
One question (of many, maybe)--what if A and B changes are not on adjacent strings? Does this complicate things much?

This is very interesting indeed. I need to think about what such a thing would be worth to me before answering the poll.

Let me just caution you--you will very possibly get more positive responses to this than you will get actual orders when the time comes. I learned this from my own experience of developing and offering a product here. I say this with no bitterness. Just an appreciation of reality.

This does interest me but I still need to determine whether I can make it work for my semi-odd setup (Fessenden U-12 8 + 8) before contributing to the poll.
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[richard burton]

Hans,
If you added an extra rod to the B activated bellcrank, going to a lowering hole in the string that B is raising (assuming that it is raising), then the detuning problem with the D string could be overcome by deliberately over-raising the string that is activated by the B bellcrank (thus getting the D string to its true pitch), and lowering the B activated string back to pitch with the extra lowering rod.

[Fred Glave]

It sounds pretty cool. I'd love to hear, see, play it in action of course. Whenever we choose our copedent we make choices and sacrifice a change or two we like for ones we like more. With this device I could have the equivalent of a 6th or 7th lever without the cost. Of course too many choices can get me confused, but I'm sure there are better players who could benefit from something like this.

[Hans Holzherr]

Thanks for your input.

Chris, correct. And more than one bellcrank could be (de)activated simultaneously.

One question (of many, maybe)--what if A and B changes are not on adjacent strings? Does this complicate things much?

Jon, this would work, too, although the proper installation would take a little more time.

Richard, if I understand correctly, your idea of the second pullrod on that same bellcrank would be to establish a strain on the body equal to that of the other bellcrank. That's a brilliant idea I haven't thought of. Thank you so much! Since in this case the B pull exerts the greater force, the one having the corrective force would be bellcrank A. A lowers the 8th string, so the extra pullrod would go to a raise hole. The drawback that I see is that this adjustment could be very time-consuming.

[Hans Holzherr]

TTT

In order to increase or approach representativeness of the survey I would like to encourage more viewers to participate in the poll and/or post their comment.

[Jon Light (deceased)]

I just submitted a positive poll response.

My biggest concern (assuming that this is engineered well and works smoothly) is the activating switch itself. If this cannot be activated in the heat of battle, it is of somewhat less interest.

[Hans Holzherr]

Jon, that's no problem. It only takes a couple of seconds. You reach under the guitar and flip the switch which clicks into place. Your hand knows where it is, and you can't mistake it for a bellcrank because it's sticking out.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

I would like such a switch. I would like to be able to occasionally change my 0 pedal from lowering the G#s to G natural, to raising them to Bb.

[Per Berner]

New possibilities are always welcome, but I would find it very difficult to get my mind/body to get used to a pedal or lever suddenly doing something completely different – and then back to normal again. Just like I don't see a need for a user-definable shift pattern for the gearbox in my car – or having the ability to make the steering wheel turn in the opposite direction. The changes available from a 3+5 setup is enough for me.
Any kind of dual function setup, in any kind of device, usually means two not very good functions.

[Lane Gray]

Actually, one use for it strikes me as helpful and non-confusatory: if one wanted more than 3 E9th pedals or Kore than 5 C6th pedals, all 8 could do double duty.

[Hans Holzherr]

Lane, the number of vacant holes in the changer fingers would set a definite limit to such a radical modification.

[Lane Gray]

True, but the Bradshaw gizmo allows that to become a soft limit. And I have 4 raises on an MSA, thanks to Sho-Bud parts.
But seriously, if one wanted a Franklin drop AND the standard P4, without making the pedal stiffer, and wanted P3 to become an "inverse P6" without stiffening the C pedal, wouldn't the switch allow that?

[chris ivey]

i think it's a valid concept! just increases your copedent choices and adds more mechanical ingenuity to the steel which is already a mechanical marvel. i've always been a tinkerer and this is just more in the development of the pedal steel. good luck, hans.

[Peter den Hartogh]

i think it's a valid concept! just increases your copedent choices and adds more mechanical ingenuity to the steel which is already a mechanical marvel. i've always been a tinkerer and this is just more in the development of the pedal steel. good luck, hans.

Amen!

[Hans Holzherr]

Lane, yes it would.

Thanks, Chris and Peter!

[Brint Hannay]

Some players have made a single lever dual-function, although not "on the fly", by rodding it for different changes and enabling or disabling the changes as desired by tuning or detuning them at the changer. I believe Paul Franklin, for example, at least at one point had a lever for the 6th string set up for either a raise from G# to B or a lower from G# to E.

[John McClung]

In dialoguing with Hans about this other more recent invention, his Magnistop (magnetic double stop device) he mentioned in passing about this concepts and prototype for his device for switching what a pedal or knee lever does. I was dumbfounded, I'd just seen a great use for that in my teaching.

This would enable me to show students how each of 2 different changes can be used. I always have a 6th knee lever on my guitars, LKL-Forward, so I would put the "Franklin lever", strings 1 and 2 up a whole and half step respectively, then switch to, let's say string 7 raising a whole step.

A simpler way but fussier would be to put bell cranks and pull rods for both that lever's changes on the crossrod and dial in at the changer the changes I want to use, and dial out the other ones I don't. Not a gig-worthy process, but for home use and experimentation, worth considering.

Thoughts from my mechanical-savvy brethren?

[Donny Hinson]

While this is a very old thread, I add my comments here because I chose (for one reason or another) not to take part at the time of the thread's creation.

I think that a problem for some players is that they seek not to learn more about how to use what they already have, but rather, to keep adding and adding to find variety and new sounds. While that may be a valid trend for some, adding to the complexity of the instrument usually means everything from just carrying it to tuning and maintaining it just gets harder. I'm more conservative than most players, and therefore believe that simplicity is a virtue, so I keep things fairly simple. But, to each his own.

What really counts is not what you have, or what your guitar is capable of, but what you can do with it, and how it sounds in the final analysis.