What Bass Guitar note do I hit for a Bb dim?

[Jack Stoner]

As the subject says. I'm doing a recording for a singer that has a Bb dim chord in it. I hit a Bb note on the Bass but he says its wrong???

[Peter Freiberger]

Maybe the context in which this chord appears would offer a clue as to what they really want there?

[Rick Barnhart]

If the singer doesn't like the root in the chord for bass, Try an inverted chord with C# for the bass note. If that doesn't work, try an E for a third inversion. Like Peter said, it depends on what context the phrase calls for.

[Marc Friedland]

Jack –

The advice you already received is correct – it’s impossible to guess without knowing the chord structure and attitude of the song.
A couple of examples:
If the song is in the key of F# and the chords are F# / Bb dim / G#m7 / C#
I might start with a partial chromatic walk-up F# G G# C# on the bass because I think it sounds best that way
If the song is in Bb and the chord progression is Bb / Bb dim / Eb / Bb and depending on the “flavor’ of the song – I may choose to play a chromatic walk-down on the bass F E Eb D
Key of C – chords are C / Bb dim / Dm / G
The bass would sound good playing C C# D G
There are way too many possibilities to simply guess at the context of the Bb diminished chord.
If possible – provide a sound clip or chord chart and I’m sure you’ll get plenty of good advice here on the Forum.

-- Marc

[b0b]

Often guitarists will write a diminished chord for a 7b9 chord because they don't think about the bass note. Look at the progression for context and think about the circle of 5ths. If the next chord is a G, for example, then your diminished chord might actually be the high part of a D7b9.

[Dave Mudgett]

Everything said here is correct - it's really important to know the context of the song to know what the root of the chord is. A diminished chord is often used as a substitute for various other chords.

As another example, the top 3 tones (3, 5, b7) of a dominant 7th chord is a diminished chord with the 3 as root (although any of the tones of a diminished chord can serve as root). So if this is actually a sub for a dom7 chord, then if Bb is the 3 (this is most common way I see it used in this context), then that would imply that root of the actual dom7th chord is two whole tones down, or Gb/F#. So if the singer is looking for a root there, that's what you'd play. Of course, there are many other uses for diminished chords, so it really is important to know the context. I think it would help to even know the key of the song, but if you can also give a chord progression, that would be better.

[Jack Stoner]

Here is more info.

The song is in A. The singer (and songwriter) says it is A, BbDim, A as that particular chord progression.

On my steel I'm playing strings 8, 6, 5 with the knee lever that raises the E's engaged at the 7th fret.

Looking at my guitar chord chart and where he's playing it on his guitar, it could be Bbdim, Bdim, Abdim, Fdim or Ddim.

EDIT/UPDATE: Here is a short (raw) clip with that chord being used: CLICK ME

[Dave Mudgett]

What I hear is Adim7, not a Bbdim, in both places - that's a very common guitar chord on strings 1-4 on frets 1&2 or on strings 2-5 at frets 5-7. From the tonality, it sounds like the version at frets 1&2 - however if he's using a capo at fret 2, then it would be the fret 5-7 version. That also corresponds to the Cdim chord you describe at fret 7 on steel.

The notes of this chord are D#, A, C, F# (your Cdim omits the A and the order is different). On the first instance, any of these would not clash, but the way it's being used here, I think the D# (perhaps sliding into the E at the end of the bar or going up to F# - think of that little Addams Family interlude or the Simpsons Theme) before going back to the A root) would sound best to me. On the second instance it sounds more strongly like a sub for the 2 (B), so I'd play a B there. It could be that he wants a B on the first instance also, but I think the D# would sound better there.

[Jack Stoner]

Thanks, Dave. I'll give those a try and see what makes him happy.

[Lee Baucum]

A agree with Dave.

[b0b]

It's a D7b9. Play a D on the bass.

It functions as a bluesy IV chord.

[Franklin]

Hi Jack,

I know this goes beyond what you asked but my ears have to comment....I personally would chart this song to fit the melody.....If its in A major, for the first chord change from A major try a B minor to fit the melody and the second change from the A major which is being played as a diminsh should be a B major or a B7th to fit the melody......I would never play a diminish chord to support that type of melody.

This may be a hard battle to win.....Ask someone to just play those chords behind the vocal and let your band mates listen to how these different chord options enhance the melody.

Paul

[b0b]

Here's the progression that I hear, without changing the songwriter's guitar part:

A D7b9 A A
A B7b9 E E

Both of those chords look like Adim7 on guitar or E9th steel. The difference is the bass note which isn't actually in the dim7 chord.

D7b9 = D F# A C D#
B7b9 = B D# F# A C

On E9th, it's 4th fret, F lever.

[John Alexander]

Regarding the first diminished chord in Jack's example, where it resolves back to the tonic chord, here's how the same device sounds in Schumann's Papillons, Op. 2 #10, at the section starting at 8:16 (second and fourth measures):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wtic4l-Lpo8

The diminished chord doesn't function as a dominant 7b9 in this context. In Piston's Harmony, p. 183, Ex. 350 it is said to function like an "appoggiatura chord." An "appoggiatura" is a temporary substitution of a neighboring note for a main note, much as steel players often slide into a note from a fret above or below.

In the example, it's as if the 3rd (C#) and the 5th (E) of the first A chord are temporarily moved down a fret to C and D# (3rd and 5th of A dim), then resolve back to C# and E. The F# note in the diminished chord, which is also a melody note, also serves as an appoggiatura, resolving back to the 5th of the A chord. It's a melodic device that has become a harmonic device by applying it to more than one note at a time and holding it a little longer.

To my ears the best bass note for this chord is A, treating the A dim7 chord as kind of a suspension of the A chord. To keep it from sounding like nothing but a series of A notes in the bass, you might want to prepare it with a 5th or something in the last beat of the preceding measure.

In the second phrase, where the diminished chord resolves to E7, the chord consists of the same four chord tones, but I think it is now functioning like a B7b9, the V of the E7, like b0b says.




_________________

[Jack Stoner]

Paul, I'm doing some demo sessions for "semi-retired" songwriter Jimmy Peppers (he has written a couple of top 10 and even a #1 song (Forever Yours) back in the late 60's/early 70's, was Jones' band manager in the no show days and produced the last Mel Street album).

There are no other "band mates", I'm everything, producer, recording engineer (I use Sonar X2), steel, bass, lead guitar and I may put in some MIDI keyboard in some of the songs.

Except for the bass comment he made, I've got "carte blanc" to do what I want with the sessions. Since they are demos I try to keep them very simple and not a lot of instrumentation.

[Franklin]

Hi Jack,

Totally understand...My judgement comes from two directions...melody and style.

I judged the piece as a songwriters type of song played within a country 3/4 feel. Using that barometer I would record it with simplistic changes as to not take away from the lyric.....Something I've learned over the years is sometimes more colorful or tense sounding chords actually can distract the attention away from the melody and lyric. To me its most important arrange within the direction of style.....we musicians can over harmonize and over arrange songs until their meaning is lost if we are not careful where we place our focus.

Good luck with this project. It sounds like you'll have fun.

Paul

[Brett Lanier]

I like Paul's suggestion for a two chord in the first phrase. Also, I would try a B7/F# in the second phrase. That way the bass isn't doing the same move twice in a row (A->B). It can just walk down,, A->F#->E.

A Bmin A A
A B7/F# E E

[Earnest Bovine]

As usual, John Alexander gives a nice explanation. Another familiar example would be the start of Tchaikovsky's Waltz of the Flowers.

[Jack Stoner]

I tracked the bass this morning, using a take lane. I used a C note for the diminished and that sounds good to me and doesn't clash with the guitar. For the second part of the sample, I used I, II, V and that seems to fit.