Push /Pull or all Pull

James Taylor · Post by **James Taylor** » 1 Nov 2012 4:23 am

HI, What would you all think is the best pedal guitar set up : Push Pull system, or an all Pull? YOURS AYE JAMES TAYLOR SCOTLAND

Eugene Cole · Post by **Eugene Cole** » 1 Nov 2012 4:30 am

James Taylor wrote:HI, What would you all think is the best pedal guitar set up : Push Pull system, or an all Pull? YOURS AYE JAMES TAYLOR SCOTLAND

Well in my experience all of the All-Pull setups I have owned are superior to the Push-Pull setups. But I only own an Emmons with a push-pull changer; some of the other makers may have a better Push-pull design.

My Sierra and my MSA can be recalibrated while I am sitting at the guitar. My Emmons is very primitive and is a nuisance to setup.

Karen Sarkisian · Post by **Karen Sarkisian** » 1 Nov 2012 5:53 am

I love the tone of my push pull Emmons, but my new Jackson is so easy to play and sounds so good that I play it more than I play my Emmons. I am lucky to have a push pull mechanic an hour away from me, because if anything goes wrong with the Emmons I am up the creek as it is complicated underneath.

Malcolm McMaster · Post by **Malcolm McMaster** » 1 Nov 2012 6:17 am

James all pull is a lot easier to maintain, personally I don't think there is a great difference in tone (will now be swamped with replies from the push pull brigrade).Where are you in Scotland? Could I suggest that you come along to the next Scottish Steelie's Night, at La Ronde Airdrie on 28th November,where you will be able to see many makes of all pull and at least one push pull and try them for yourself, it all comes down to personal preference.You can see details of night on the British Steelies Society site.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 1 Nov 2012 6:30 am

Or you could get a combination p/p and all pull: the "Zum Hybrid".

Bill L. Wilson · Post by **Bill L. Wilson** » 1 Nov 2012 7:05 am

Having had both, the PP had better tone, the Emmons LeGrande II is much easier to tune, and it still has that Emmons tone, just a shade different, but not enough to matter to me. I'll stick with All-Pull.

Karen Sarkisian · Post by **Karen Sarkisian** » 1 Nov 2012 7:15 am

you need one of each

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 1 Nov 2012 7:35 am

The original Emmons push pulls are'nt really made anymore
Promat from Croatia offers a present day version of one
Pull release models are still made on certain student models
All in all, 70% of all psgs are all pulls
there's a good reason for that
their mechanics & maintenance among other things

James Taylor · Post by **James Taylor** » 1 Nov 2012 10:25 am

Hi Malcolm, I guess I'm out in the sticks and not in the central belt . However I will look into this and see what can be done. Can you email me some details of this group.JAMES TAYLOR

Malcolm McMaster · Post by **Malcolm McMaster** » 1 Nov 2012 10:37 am

No problem James, will pm you with details.Malcolm

James Taylor · Post by **James Taylor** » 1 Nov 2012 10:51 am

Hi , Thank you all for feeding me with more useful information . I have been looking at various models mentioned by you all. However this is through further reviews on the internet only. Cost is one issue I have to consider and again this takes me back to the ZUM Stage one or ZUM Encore . I am also Impressed with the new Mullin although Zum appears to draw me. I see they have an option of a single coil on the encore ; but there again I am unsure of this pickup for feedback. These superb pickups mentioned by some members has also impressed me. This Form that B0b started is the best group I have ever joined. I bought strings from him over the past few years; but I believe this is the best string wind he has ever designed YOURS AYE JAMES

TAYLOR

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Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 1 Nov 2012 4:26 pm

CrowBear Schmitt wrote:The original Emmons push pulls are'nt really made anymore
Promat from Croatia offers a present day version of one
Pull release models are still made on certain student models
All in all, 70% of all psgs are all pulls
there's a good reason for that
their mechanics & maintenance among other things

Simmons in Alabama still makes pull-release guitars that aren't just student models.

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 2 Nov 2012 12:56 am

James, it all depends on what you mean by best.

I've had 4 Emmons push/pulls. Once they were set up properly, they never needed adjusting. They stayed in tune and have all been super reliable with great tone and sustain. The action is heavier than an all-pull but limited compared to modern guitars.

That said, I recommend falling in love with the tone of a pedal steel before you buy one. If you don't need the push/pull tone, don't buy one. Or else keep quiet about it. There are lots of push/pull haters here on the forum. In fact, I may be risking my life just typing this. BTW, I also love Sho-Buds.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 2 Nov 2012 2:27 am

All-pulls do what it says on the tin, they pull.

They don't push, and therefore don't need any excess travel in the rods.

They are far simpler to set up, and copedent changes are a snap compared to push-pulls.

That's the main reason why they are in the majority.

The push-pull is its own worst enemy if it has the original factory setup.

I work in a factory, and if something impedes the fast flow of production, that something has to change.

The flow of production on a pedal steel guitar comes to a bottleneck at the fine-tuning stage of assembly,
more so on the push-pull because of the finnicky way that the fingers have to bottom-out on the body at the same time, so there is a time consuming trial-and-error session of positioning the collars.

Lashley reduced this bottleneck by using shock springs between the collar and the bellcrank, thus speeding up production, but creating an awful 'mushiness' to the pedal/lever feel.

This is just one example of reducing bottlenecks in the PP factory, and why spending a bit of your own time improving the PP setup is necessary to get the best out of a PP

Waisznor · Post by **Waisznor** » 2 Nov 2012 4:18 am

Richard, I don´t agree!

I suspect most of the bottlenecks in your modified Steels

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 2 Nov 2012 5:06 am

Waisznor,
'Bottleneck' is a figure of speech, like a river backing up because of some obstruction.

I didn't mean 'bottleneck' to be taken literally, as in the neck of a bottle

James Taylor · Post by **James Taylor** » 2 Nov 2012 5:07 am

HI, Then would this mean that the Zum encore would be a better buy than the Stage One ? JAMES TAYLOR

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 2 Nov 2012 5:23 am

My push-pull plays as good as any of my all pull guitars and sounds wonderful. You have to remember that the design is fairly old in comparitive terms.

The scissor changer has made changing the pedal set up a much simpler process, but in agreement with a previous poster in this thread, once a push-pull is set up correctly it will stay in tune as good as any guitar and play very smoothly.

Mine has ball bearings where the cross shaft meets the body, and it makes a world of difference. It is a joy to play.

Malcolm McMaster · Post by **Malcolm McMaster** » 2 Nov 2012 5:23 am

James I am not up to speed with Stage One or Encore, but believe that since Encore is newer it may have extra features.If you go down that road remember to add in the substantial extra costs like shipping and taxes if importing. Alternatively you can get stage one from Gerry Hogan (don't know about encore).You may want to look at buying a used pro model here in UK from Gerry or Ted,or John,all great guys to deal with,thus avoiding all those extra charges.Take your time and try as many guitars as you can (Steelies night good for this) and get the one that you feel comfortable with.

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 2 Nov 2012 6:41 am

If you don't like to tinker, don't buy a push pull . If you are a tinkerer, a push-pull may work for you. If your mechanic , the push-pull is easy to work on, reliable and stays in tune.

IMHO, the main argument in favor of the push pull, is the solid changer finger which imparts a s distinctive & beautiful tone. The only other guitars that have this quality are either other push- pulls or their brethren with push- release changer mechanisms.

Ray Anderson · Post by **Ray Anderson** » 2 Nov 2012 8:25 am

Hey Tony, Enlighten me on push-release and what makes use this changer? I know of all-pull, push-pull and pull-release. Nooby here!

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 2 Nov 2012 11:48 am

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... 1bde817a86

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 2 Nov 2012 11:49 am

That's a typo. I meant to say pull-release. Although, a push-release mechanism would operate just the opposite of the pull- release mechanism. Good example would be a second string lower on an old Marlin guitar.

Ray Anderson · Post by **Ray Anderson** » 2 Nov 2012 12:53 pm

That was a great thread. I saved for future reference of which I will need. Thanks

James Taylor · Post by **James Taylor** » 9 Nov 2012 12:21 pm

Thank you all for the very valuable information you all have passed on to me through this brilliant forum that b0b started. I found him a real friend a few years ago while starting on lap steel from guitar after a finger accident and in the choice of strings . His recommendations were always in tune with what I was attempting .A VERY BIG THANKS TO EACH ONE AND ALL OF YOU JAMES TAYLOR

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Push /Pull or all Pull

Push /Pull or all Pull

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PP or All Pull

Push/Pull ; all Pull

Push/Pull ; All Pull

push/ pull; all pull

Cool link on pull-release

push /pull or all pull