Care and feeding of an Emmons pp

Howard Steinberg · Post by **Howard Steinberg** » 26 Sep 2012 1:13 pm

In 1985 I decided to replace my MSA Classic as it had 2 knee levers and I wanted to add 3 additional levers. Since parts were hard to find, I decided that I needed a new guitar. Several years earlier, I played a gig on guitar, with a steel player who had an Emmons D-10, played through an Evans amp. Two things that I remember from this gig are the spectacular sound of the Emmons guitar and that the guy playing it was adjusting things at the changer end of the guitar, throughout the night.

Fast forward to 1985 and I'm jonesing for an Emmons pp. At this point everyone that I spoke with discouraged me from buying a push pull guitar. The issue was the maintenance/adjustment factor. The person who I ended up ordering the guitar through
compared the Emmons to a Ferrari in terms of the time that I would be spending with the adjustment/maintenance of the guitar.

In about 6 weeks, I'll be heading to my place in Florida for 6 months or so. I am planning on buying a stay at home D-10 to keep in Florida. There have been many appealing D-10's on the Forum. I've been good with all pull guitars for a long time, but am wondering if an Emmons pp is in my future. My ability to work on undercarriges is limited. I am wondering what kind of commitment I need to make to one of these machines in order to keep it playable? Trying to decide whether to go for one of the nice, all pull, guitars that show up for sale here or to satisfy my curiosity about the push pull guitar.

Any input is much appreciated. Howard

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 26 Sep 2012 1:20 pm

There are a host of players around that can help you if you get in a bind on a PP. I would start by buying a guitar from Lynn Safford or Billy Knowles, they would work like a dream right out of the box.

Since you played a PP you seem to still be headed that direction, and for good reason,continue on do not stop now.

Larry Behm

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 26 Sep 2012 1:31 pm

I think you got a lot of bad advice. A properly set up push-pull is a very reliable, trouble free guitar. Not at all like a Ferrari!!

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 26 Sep 2012 1:35 pm

With a p/p, you need to decide on a copedant and leave it. A p/p is very dependable and stable but it is more difficult to make changes on.

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 26 Sep 2012 1:46 pm

I agree with Erv that changing your pedal set-up is more involved with a PP.

I wanted to add, having to frequently adjust the pedal and lever stops at the end plate can be a sign that it's time to put a drop of lock-tite on the changer end tuning screw threads. I use Permatex Threadlocker Blue, about once per year. It's easy to do. Certainly not a deal breaker!!

Doug Palmer · Post by **Doug Palmer** » 26 Sep 2012 2:25 pm

I almost never have to touch my P/P Emmons guitars. Once the are set up they stay. I also have a LeGrande that I seldom touch. I tune them before a show and usually don't have to retune between sets. Either way you won't go wrong with an Emmons guitar.

Doug

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 26 Sep 2012 2:44 pm

I've been playing Emmons PP's for the last year and have played them in the past. They are more difficult to work on then more modern guitars in my experience. They are quite a commitment

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 26 Sep 2012 9:34 pm

I would imagine that it's quite a shock for a lifelong all-pull steel player to play a bog-standard push-pull.

The all-pull player is not familiar with the heavy and notchy pedal action of the PP, not to mention the (necessary) excess travel of some pedals/levers, and the absence of splits, and soon returns to his all-pull steel.

Gerry Brown · Post by **Gerry Brown** » 27 Sep 2012 2:38 am

I bought a push/pull D-10 a couple of years ago when I was getting started with psg without knowing what it was. I didn't keep it very long because of the difficulty with adjusting it combined with my lack of knowledge and experience. I did buy Bobbe Seymour's video on the care and maintenance of a p/p and would be happy to pass it along to you if you'd like it.

Gerry Brown · Post by **Gerry Brown** » 27 Sep 2012 2:40 am

I bought a push/pull D-10 a couple of years ago when I was getting started with psg without knowing what it was. I didn't keep it very long because of the difficulty with adjusting it combined with my lack of knowledge and experience. I did buy Bobbe Seymour's video on the care and maintenance of a p/p and would be happy to pass it along to you if you'd like it.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 27 Sep 2012 7:15 am

Richard,
I'm sure all the happy p/p players will be pleased to read your critique of the Emmons p/p.

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 27 Sep 2012 7:55 am

PP players are kind of like bike riders, the wind in your face, the open road ahead all just waiting for you, vs the enclosure of a stuffy car with the windows rolled up. Oh sure you may have to make a carb adjustment every now and then but the enjoyment you get in return far out ways the alternative.

We all have tons of options in which guitar to buy, thanks goodness. I think right now in history we are seeing some great products made, with just us in mind. Guitars, pedals, pickups, amps etc made by steel players who really "get it".

Just saying
Larry Behm

Lynn Stafford · Post by **Lynn Stafford** » 27 Sep 2012 8:48 am

Doug Palmer wrote:I almost never have to touch my P/P Emmons guitars. Once the are set up they stay. I also have a LeGrande that I seldom touch. I tune them before a show and usually don't have to retune between sets. Either way you won't go wrong with an Emmons guitar.

Doug

Well said Doug, my sentiments exactly

Larry, thanks for the very kind words my friend

Larry Bressington · Post by **Larry Bressington** » 27 Sep 2012 8:49 am

I never found anything difficult with them, it's just basic mechanics... it shouldn't need anymore TLC than anything else out there from that era, and i would not be afraid of one of those lovely guitars. All pull guitars need adjustment too. It's not anything like a Corvette

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 27 Sep 2012 9:14 am

I never minded the notchy action and the unevenly timed pulls. I'd still play my 81 push-pull if some goober hadn't burgled me out of it.

Mark Carlisle · Post by **Mark Carlisle** » 27 Sep 2012 11:11 am

I currently have a D-10 P/P on the market and owned another in the past. The previous one was set up by Jack Strayhorn when he worked for Emmons at the factory. That guitar was played and traveled quite a bit, thrown into trailers,etc. and never needed anything other than a string change-totally stable.My current one is a later build and was set up by Bobbie. Again, it's a stable guitar, has loctite in the right places. Yep, there are a lot of springs and little wire hooks that look scary to a all pull player, however once you understand what makes it work it's not difficult to maintain.

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 27 Sep 2012 12:17 pm

I'll echo the above sentiments. I have several all-pull guitars, and they're great. But there IS something special about a push-pull that's hard to put into words. I think of it as "feedback". The guitar "feels" good while playing. It provides a "connection" to the music that my all-pulls can't give...although they sound, and play, great

I have an '71 Emmons S12 Universal, 7 + 5 (not a common PP configuration). And I can guarantee you that if your guitar isn't set up correctly it will be a nightmare to tune and play.

BUT...if you get it set up by one of the experts here on the forum, you will find that a PP is one incredibly enjoyable axe to play. And it'll stay adjusted for a long time.

Of course, everyone has their own opinion, so you should do yourself a favor and sit down with one that's set up right. Try it out and decide for yourself. It's the only way to be sure you don't make a mistake.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 27 Sep 2012 1:19 pm

richard burton wrote:I would imagine that it's quite a shock for a lifelong all-pull steel player to play a bog-standard push-pull.

The all-pull player is not familiar with the heavy and notchy pedal action of the PP, not to mention the (necessary) excess travel of some pedals/levers, and the absence of splits, and soon returns to his all-pull steel.

I fear Mr. Burton painteth with too broad of a brush. Rather, I'd agree with him completely if he said that in his personal experience, he found himself unfamiliar with the various subjective observations he'd made and soon returned to his all-pull guitar.

I own five PPs and they're all set-up by a master mechanic, and play like a dream. Example: two years ago, Bruce Zumsteg sat behind one of my guitars and with open eyes and mouth asked "Wow! Who put this together?" In my experience, if an Emmons guitar has heavy, notchy action, it simply is not lubed and set up correctly by someone who understands the guitar's mechanics.

The PP is definitely not the guitar for Everyman. The happy PP user will probably be comfortable with his current copedent and not be chasing each new change one of his heroes just put on a guitar, because changing copedents can be relatively involved. For this reason, I also own a LeGrande AP which allows me to more easily experiment with changes. If I like and feel I'll really use the new change, I can then do the surgery on the PP with confidence and familiarity of the changes.

The happy PP user might prefer the very slightly longer pedal travel on strings that are both raised and lowered, which allows more "milking" of notes than the instantaneous pedal actions of the all-pull do. However, I have played PPs with incredibly fast pedal actions and light pedals. In most situations, I've found the guitar is considerably faster than the chops of the player. If you're a player that is slowed down by a PP, you are one mighty fast steel picker and I'd like to hear some of your work.

Also, the PP is more forgiving about a player's foot "riding the clutch," as it were; I like to feel the pedals ever so slightly without the strings going out of tune. This is a plus for me with the PP, and one reason why I have a problem with many all-pull guitars.

I think the design of the instrument is esthetically beautiful, is unchanged since its inception, and fits my subjective sense of musical tradition. When I was first getting into steel in 1964, a PSG looked like a Fender, a Bigsby, a Sho~Bud, or an Emmons. Little wonder that I've owned all those brands. The GFI, for example, is a wonderful playing guitar, but its cosmetics dissuades me from liking one as part of my arsenal. To each, as they say, his own.

The main reason why I'm committed to playing the PP as long as I probably will remain playing is simply put: That Sound. In all my years of playing, that is the sound I've sought after and never found until I went to the PP, and trust me, I've tried every AP guitar on the market and most that are no longer being made. Some have gotten close, and I can think of two individual guitars that I thought could have fooled me... one was a Zum Hybrid and one a Carter with George L TPP pickups.

This of course is totally a subjective decision by me. I'm not at all saying MY choice of guitar is what EVERYONE should choose. I fully accept others saying "hey, but I WANT the (Sho~Bud, Mullen, Bigsby, etc...) sound/action, et al. To that I say, have at it and find the guitar that makes you happy.

FWIW, I played Sho~Bud guitars for 15 years, then a PP from 1982 until 1989 when it was stolen. I then played Fessenden and Mullen AP guitars from 1990 until 1995. I then had an opportunity to find the PP guitar I'd been looking for since the 70's and pulled the trigger on it. I then realized what I'd been missing the previous 5 years. I've been committed to the PP since that time, and I'm sure I'll be playing a PP into the sunset when my time here is done.

If it's for you, you won't know until you've tried it and given it some time to decide whether or not you both like each other. You'll always find a buyer if you want to bail out at a later date.

Please excuse the momentary lapse into wordiness. Good luck in your search for sonic satisfaction.

Ray DeVoe · Post by **Ray DeVoe** » 27 Sep 2012 2:24 pm

Hi Howard

There are several PP players in your area of FL. I have a friend with a S 10 PP that lives right in St Pete or Largo to be more exact. I helped him out and totally reworked and set up his PP, from the body up. Its now set up to to where it plays right and stays in tune and adjustment. I do not work on PP guitars professionally for customers but I would be glad to help you out of a bind if you didn't understand something about a PP, if you were to buy one.

I live 20 miles above St Pete in New Port Richey, FL and own 4 terrific PP's of my own. Each one is special in it's own way, with the show stopper being a 1975 black lacquer D 10.

The one thing that I would suggest is that you buy a guitar that is in good condition. It gets time consuming and costly to rebuild any brand or model steel guitar if it's in a heavily worn condition.

Ray DeVoe

Dale Hampton · Post by **Dale Hampton** » 27 Sep 2012 5:54 pm

The happy PP user might prefer the very slightly longer pedal travel on strings that are both raised and lowered, which allows more "milking" of notes than the instantaneous pedal actions of the all-pull do. However, I have played PPs with incredibly fast pedal actions and light pedals. In most situations, I've found the guitar is considerably faster than the chops of the player. If you're a player that is slowed down by a PP, you are one mighty fast steel picker and I'd like to hear some of your work.

The P/P don't slow this fellow down

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Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 27 Sep 2012 9:53 pm

Herb brings up two good points:

1] "Notchy" or ill-timed pedals indicate poor set-up. PP pedal [or KL changes] should be timed to all bottom out simultaneously. When set up thus, they play about as well as any modern guitar

2] I love the fact you can lightly rest your left foot on the pedals without immediately engaging the changes. It's much less fatiguing when compared to maintaining a foot position poised above the pedals.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 27 Sep 2012 9:59 pm

But I'd always accepted that, in order to end together, they'd START at different times on the same pedal or lever.
And it never bothered me in the slightest

Tony Glassman · Post by **Tony Glassman** » 27 Sep 2012 10:45 pm

.........and use shock springs to time the initial contact, as well.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 27 Sep 2012 11:30 pm

Herb,
You didn't read what I said closely enough, if you look at my post again you will see that I am talking about bog-standard instruments, ie in original factory condition.

I myself play a PP, it was my main gigging steel for many years.

When I bought it (1990), it was in original factory condition, and I knew that I could improve its playability, as previous to that I had built several pedal steels from scratch, to my own design.

It now plays as easy as any all-pull, I have positioned all the pedals and levers to be an ergonomic fit for me, with the bare minimum of excess travel necessary to allow lowers, and of course has the PP tone

Incidentally, I have never had to adjust any settings since I did my setup, many moons ago. I hardly ever even have to fiddle with the endplate tuners, just get it out of the case and play

What I'm saying is that a pedal steel player who is not mechanically inclined, when faced with a factory original PP, with generically positioned pedals and levers, and long travel (because there's no helper springs) will find it hard to concentrate fully on the music, as the instrument will almost certainly not be an ergonomic fit for him

Watch this video, I'm playing my PP in my socks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seX2ONPsJN0

Paul Sutherland · Post by **Paul Sutherland** » 27 Sep 2012 11:59 pm

"Bog standard"!! That's a new one on me. Why don't you speak English? Oh wait, you are English. $:\$

The Steel Guitar Forum

Care and feeding of an Emmons pp

Care and feeding of an Emmons pp

p/p

Re: p/p

Hi Howard

Herb Steiner wrote