Tuning keys with Trim-Lok system

Mat Davallet · Post by **Mat Davallet** » 4 Jun 2012 4:58 am

I'm thinking about Tuning keys with Trim lock system (that block the string with a wrench) for my steel (like Sperzel do) . Does anyone mount that system on a steel ? did it works fine ?

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 4 Jun 2012 6:59 am

Depending on tuning machine type, it could be very difficult to lock the strings – no room to get your fingers around the locking knob on tuners like Schaller or Sperzel.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 4 Jun 2012 8:41 am

These would be the ultimate, but I'm not sure how you'd mount them. No locking knob to turn. From Sperzel.
" Sound-Lok
This is a more friction-passive positive locking system which still eliminates multiple wraps around the string post. Usually a 1/2 to a full wrap locks the string tightly, improving tuning stability for any kind of guitar.
Here's how Sound-Lok Works

The Sound-Lok tuner is a friction lock system, and has the look of vintage safety posts of the past, where you had to measure the string and cut to length. This was very time-consuming and wasteful, especially if you cut the string short.

The Sound-Lok needs no measuring; simply insert string into the hole by the slot and feed string all the way through the shaft until it comes out the bottom of the post. Pull the string until tight, then bend the string so it lies in the slot on top of the post. With your thumb holding the string in place, tune to pitch with tuner button (Approximately 1/2 - 1 full wrap is required). The string will automatically grab and lock into place. Cut any excess string and repeat for remaining strings."

Mat Davallet · Post by **Mat Davallet** » 4 Jun 2012 10:03 am

Good information, thanks, i'm looking for that system and keep you in touch (did you know anyone that install a sound lok on a steel ?). For the Trim-lock system, it's possible to mount it on my Lashley legrande 2. I only need to drill a hole, but... there is a little problem on strings that are affect by a knee or pedal, because you must pull on that strings and block it to have the less turn to do (is it a problem ?? i'm not sure).

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 4 Jun 2012 11:08 am

That wouldn't pose a problem, as the regular tuners still hold tight to the strings

Mat Davallet · Post by **Mat Davallet** » 4 Jun 2012 11:32 am

For sure ! next step, choosing between the two systems (trim or sound lok) and mounting the tuning keys..

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 4 Jun 2012 1:46 pm

I have Sperzels on some of my 6-strings. Trim Loks. When I worked building Performance Steel Guitars, I talked to Bob about the Sound Lok models. Sperzel is here in town. He felt the Sound Lok models would work for steel guitar.

I seem to recall some company using the Trim Loks, but don't remember who. I kinda see some possible problems with using the Trim Loks. The locking wheel is rather large, as it has to be large enough to apply enough force to lock the string. There's not a lot of room to grab and twist those wheels when the tuners are mounted on the keyhead. On a D-10, there's gonna be very little "grab" room between the E9th, 10th string tuner, and the C6th 1st string tuner.

Also,,, the tuner shaft is hollow, and there's a loose locking pin inside it that is forced into the string by the locking wheel. But the pin IS LOOSE. With the tuner shaft being horizontal, loosening the locking wheel will not pull the inner locking pin back, gravity does that on a 6-string, and you may need a needle or similar object, to stick into the string hole, and push the locking pin back far enough to poke in the string.

I'm not sure how the Sound Lok machines even mount, although it's probably pretty standard. But the design is very cool!

http://sperzel.com/Models_Colors.html

Mat Davallet · Post by **Mat Davallet** » 4 Jun 2012 2:23 pm

Thanks a lot John!! all of your remark are true and really helpfull. One solution for me. A friend give me a set of 6 sperzel (not 3/3). i'll sacrified two of those for experimentation on string 10 (E9) and 1 (C6) to see if it's possible to turn the wheel corectly. Before, i'll just cut the little "stem" (how to say tige ou piquot en anglais ?

on the tuner to keep my keyhead safe. For the pin inside, i see what you mean. The only solution is (when the pin block the hole) to lean the steel to get the pin inside the tuner. brainstorming !!
Mat

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 4 Jun 2012 2:32 pm

"how to say tige ou piquot en anglais ?"

Je ne sais pas!

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 4 Jun 2012 2:55 pm

A short story about me, and Sperzels. Long ago, I was playing steel and 6-string in a local band. When I strung up my Tele, it was one wind above the string hole, and one wind below. The other guitar player was convinced that more winds were better! He would wind a huge gob of string around the tuner post. He'd bend a wound string, and that huge pile of wound strings would do all sorts of "étrange" stuff. Windings slipping over each other, etc.. He was always coming back plat ou brusque. Probably the wrong word for "sharp," but it's been 50 years since I spoke any French! When Sperzels first hit the market, I immediately bought a set. Great machines! I'll bet Andy is still winding a liasse de corde around his tuners.
My Gawd! My French is pathetic!

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 4 Jun 2012 2:58 pm

SIT recommends 4-6 turns for plain strings and less for wound.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 4 Jun 2012 3:29 pm

"SIT recommends 4-6 turns for plain strings and less for wound."

Yeah Lane,,,, but that's for standard, non-locking tuners, right? A half turn with a Sperzel is quite sufficient.

String posts, up until the Thirties were straight. You had to tie a knot in the string to ensure no slippage. Mid-Thirties, a new design came out; the string hole in the post was in the center of a concave surface. This concavity utilized the strings high tension to force the windings down the concave surface, to grab the string end tightly. This design is still the standard. Locking tuners don't need this design. They're sort of the intermediate step between ordinary tuners, and keyless tuners.

BTW: SIT is also in town, and they make my custom sets for Uni, and Baritone 6-string. Good people!

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 4 Jun 2012 3:33 pm

I have Sperzel locking tuners on my SKH Legrande, VAST improvement over the stock Grovers!. Note: The barrels that are supplied with six string sets are too long for a steel guitar keyhead, shorter barrels will have to be obtained from Sperzel (customer service is first rate BTW). Also, the small pins will have to be removed, they do not line up with the holes drilled for the Grovers but the tuners stay securely in position without them.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 4 Jun 2012 3:35 pm

Cool!

Mat Davallet · Post by **Mat Davallet** » 4 Jun 2012 3:40 pm

"Liasse" could be bundle or wad in english. I'm
sure melting the strings around the tuner post and making wheels and wheels on a pedal steel is not a good idea. Keyless is the most precise and tunable system i know, but.. the tone decrease. Trim lok could be a very good compromise between keyless and traditionnal keyhead.

And me i speak english like a auk !!

Mat Davallet · Post by **Mat Davallet** » 4 Jun 2012 3:42 pm

Thanks David !! i was writing my post during your answer..
"The barrels that are supplied with six string sets are too long for a steel guitar keyhead"
Butt for a "Short keyhead like yours". It's seems good for my LL2 standard key head !! yeah
Very good news for the "short pin" too, thanks a lot !!

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 4 Jun 2012 9:49 pm

I remember an older thread where some who had tried saw a higher risk for string breakage using locking tuners; something about the sharp angle where the string joins the post perhaps – can't be sure but it seemed logical then.

Mat Davallet · Post by **Mat Davallet** » 4 Jun 2012 11:59 pm

I'll try "trim lok" on string 3 and 5 on my E9 and keep you posted in one week...

Mat Davallet · Post by **Mat Davallet** » 5 Jun 2012 12:19 am

Sperzel "trim lok" and "sound lok" on You Tube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAv_G9gJZaM

Mat Davallet · Post by **Mat Davallet** » 5 Jun 2012 12:24 pm

Yes David, Standard Sperzel trim-lok are too big for my LL2 keyhead !!

Mat Davallet · Post by **Mat Davallet** » 25 Jul 2012 7:26 am

Hi

Here are pics of the new Sperzel trim lok on my LLII. Sperzel made custom size and it works perfectly (thanks a lot to Sperzel company !)

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Mat Davallet · Post by **Mat Davallet** » 25 Jul 2012 10:17 am

3 hours playing and no broken string for the moment...
To be continued !

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 25 Jul 2012 10:27 am

Did Bob make you smaller "wheels?"

Mat Davallet · Post by **Mat Davallet** » 25 Jul 2012 10:34 am

I think so, but i can't compare to the other models. Anyway, those are really easy to turn and really accessible without any problems..

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 25 Jul 2012 10:40 am

"really accessible without any problems.."

Cool! My concern was getting to the wheels on the 10th string E neck, and the 1st string C neck.