u12 question

Karen Sarkisian · Post by **Karen Sarkisian** » 27 May 2012 10:35 am

what is the recommended tuning for a u12 for someone who is getting into a bit of c6 but doesn't want to buy a double neck guitar ? I've been faking my way thru on e9 with pedals down but thinking my next guitar may be a u12 to be able to get more c6. thanks

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 27 May 2012 10:44 am

the E9/B6 has all the E9th changes, but is missing some C6 levers.
The Bb6 Universal has all the C6 changes, but is missing a few of the E9th changes, Unless you load it up real good.
Some of the changes unique to the Bb6 look really appealing. that is why I am going for a 10 and 6 or 10 and 7 Bb6 guitar, made challenging by the fact that I have a double raise, double lower MSA.

Karen Sarkisian · Post by **Karen Sarkisian** » 27 May 2012 10:46 am

what does Zane King use ?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 27 May 2012 10:52 am

he has his own E9/6 tuning.
It looks simultaneously interesting and alien.
If I had a 3rd guitar, I might try it.

Chris Tweed · Post by **Chris Tweed** » 27 May 2012 11:15 am

Don't want deviate from the OP question, but what is an extended E9 tuning and how does it relate to those mentioned above (E9/Bb6 and U12)?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 27 May 2012 11:33 am

From http://b0b.com/wp/?page_id=201 (copedents)
Here are several Extended E9th from Earnest Bovine: http://b0b.com/tunings/ebovine.html
Here's Reece's two universal tunings on one page, both E9/B6 and his Bb6: http://b0b.com/tunings/MauriceAnderson.html#E9th

There are some other Universal tunings on there too, I'm building mine off of David Wright's tuning, although my Ds go to E with a half-stop at Eb with RKL.

Chris, the E9/B6 and Bb6 are BOTH U-12 tunings: not sure if Zane would call his a Uni.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 27 May 2012 11:59 am

Here's a vid about E9/B6th Universal tuning.
http://steel-guitar-austin.com/57.html

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 27 May 2012 11:59 am

I just reread the OP. Instead of A6 with pedals down, try hitting the B6 of dropping your Es.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 27 May 2012 2:47 pm

Don't want deviate from the OP question, but what is an extended E9 tuning and how does it relate to those mentioned above (E9/Bb6 and U12)?

An extended E9 usually just add a low G# and E to the tuning and keeps the regular E9th changes. Most don't have the changes for the 6th side of the tuning.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 27 May 2012 6:10 pm

Chris Tweed wrote:Don't want deviate from the OP question, but what is an extended E9 tuning and how does it relate to those mentioned above (E9/Bb6 and U12)?

An extended E9th is an E9th and can be operated with 3 pedals and 4-5 levers
A Universal or U-12 needs 7-8 pedals and 4-5 levers.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 28 May 2012 12:19 pm

"A Universal or U-12 needs 7-8 pedals and 4-5 levers."

Well, Ken,,,, my Kline Uni is 6 and 7.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 28 May 2012 3:49 pm

I don't want to deviate from the deviation BUT ,,,
Guess I should have said a uni needs a minimum of 7 pedals and a E9th can operate with 3 pedals,,,
Unless you are from Ohio or invoke the Kline handicap rule and require an extra pedal.. HA! just kidding Kline is a fine guitar.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 28 May 2012 3:52 pm

I invoke the Kline handicap rule! Stunningly good guitar!
What is that rule, anyway?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 28 May 2012 4:07 pm

Or you could say E9th needs a minimum of 7 pedals/knees, C6th needs 6 (folks who leave out P4 are missing some cool stuff), while a Uni needs a minimum of 12 which leaves at least one common change out, and most modern additions to both the E9th and C6th vocabulary. That's why, as soon as I can overcome technical hurdles, my MSA will be as foolishly loaded as I've planned, 10 and 7 or so.

Douglas Schuch · Post by **Douglas Schuch** » 28 May 2012 5:51 pm

Karen,

There is another idea you might want to look at which keeps the E9 complete with all 10 strings and pedals in their usual place, but with a lock gives you a complete B6. Tony Glassman did this on a couple of Zums and I bought one from him recently. Here is his discussion of it:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=220213

His Coped chart does not show everything, as there are additional knee levers for the left knee in the center, much like a D-10 would have. My steel from Tony has 8 pedals and 7 knees, and has everything a "standard" D10 has on it plus a couple. Here is what my guitar has on it, unmodified since I bought it:

I think this setup particularly appeals to D-10 players who want a lighter guitar to gig with. If you look it over, you will see that pedals 4,5,6,7 correspond to the 5,6,7,8 pedals of a standard D-10. The usual pedal 4 is now on the left knee left in the more central position (LKL2)

What is nice about this is that, other than adjusting for the two additional strings, you can play any E9 stuff you already play EXACTLY THE SAME. And, you can use any standard C6 tabs, instruction, etc, to explore the B6 side (1/2 step down, of course, and pedals might be in different places).

There is a trade-off, though: I am working on and using a lot of 4-note chords on B6, using a pick on my ring finger. Some people just strum these, at least the ones that use 4 or 5 adjacent strings. One of the advantages of the usual tuning is the ability to not see this as two separate tunings, but to mix it all together, moving between them as needed, just use the lever to drop the E's and you have all those big 4-note chords (with pedals to change them), and then be right back into the E9 stuff by releasing the lever. If I do that, I have a big hole in the chords with the 9 string, which is not dropped.

Currently, the 8 pedal is not set up so that it is in tune when pressed completely. It actually pulls past tune, then you flip the lever, and release the pedal against it. So I can not use it to get the B6 side without the lever. I need to experiment and see if I can tune it and set up the lever (which is adjustable) to stop at and hold perfect tune. Then I could use the 8-pedal for this....but it is pulling a lot and a very stiff pedal to use! I will try that in the next few days and report back on how it works.

As a side note, I am living in the Philippines. So, this Norwegian steel player saw Tony's post and decided that was a good solution for him and is getting a new Fulawka build with this setup. And it turns out he is getting ready to retire, and is finishing construction on his house in the Philippines, just a couple of miles from my apartment. So, only a few guitars in the world probably have this tuning, and two will end up out here in the Philippines. I met Harry last week: unlike me he can really play steel!

Doug

John Alexander · Post by **John Alexander** » 28 May 2012 6:43 pm

Lane Gray wrote:That's why, as soon as I can overcome technical hurdles, my MSA will be as foolishly loaded as I've planned, 10 and 7 or so.

Lane, I'd be interested in seeing what your copedent looks like, if you've got it planned out and wish to post it.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 28 May 2012 7:21 pm

I'll show you in another thread, since that's probably not Karen's direction.

Douglas Schuch · Post by **Douglas Schuch** » 28 May 2012 8:53 pm

Followup:

I got out my mechanics cap and re-tuned my guitar so that all the pulls on my pedal 8 (which is used with the lock to engage the B6 tuning) are in tune at the maximum pedal throw, and then adjusted to lock and it worked. There are five lowers on that pedal (see coped chart above), so it is a bit of a push, but it can be used on its own, right foot, to get into B6, or with pedals 4-6. Pedal 7 (the boo wah on this guitar) is reachable, but a bit awkward. The only drawback is it is a bit harder to engage the lock, as it has to squeeze in and hold the pedal at full throw. But no big deal.

Doug

John Alexander · Post by **John Alexander** » 28 May 2012 10:30 pm

Lane Gray wrote:I'm in the middle of writing it down . . .
Here ya go, BTW.

Thanks, Lane. You've kept more of the cool Bb6 stuff than I expected after reading earlier descriptions - the knee levers and your pedal 5.

Getting back to the OP, it seems like the most natural starting point in a universal tuning for an E9 player would be one of the E9-based universal tunings that maintains the order of the first four strings, has the A, B and C pedals and conventional E9 knee levers, and gets most of the standard 6th changes on a B6 tuning that starts with lowering the E strings to D#. In addition to the Glassman copedent mentioned earlier one might look at the standard Sierra E9/B6 tuning shown here: http://b0b.com/tunings/sierra.html , which seems to cover the most important E9 and C6 changes.

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 28 May 2012 11:22 pm

Heres a link to a thread I started a while back when working on setting up an E9/B6 U12 with 8X5.
I got a lot of help from forumites on this, as it was completely new terrain for me.
I really enjoyed using this copedent and may return to it soon. Ext E9 5X5 is good as an option for 12 strings and what Im experimenting on currently, but there are B6 changes not used. Hope this helps. The main difference for me was lowering E on the right knee instead of the Emmons LKR I was used to.

Clete

Micky Byrne · Post by **Micky Byrne** » 3 Jun 2012 2:15 am

Hi Karen...by you using your AB pedals down you're playing in A6th...If you go for a 12 string universal, you'd just have to hold a knee over...usually on the right knee, to get the B6th mode.. So much easier to use your left foot to get the 6th pedals. The fact that a 10 stringer "D" note is got back on a knee lever, a 12 string universal has in fact 13 open notes. Just consider the 12 string universal E9th/B6th as one big tuning. That will last you several lifetimes. If you listen to my playing on the "Friends and Aquaintances" page of my website, you'll here me mix the 9th and the 6th tuning...the ending is full 6th tuning.

Micky Byrne U.K.

Sho-Bud and Carter universals

www.micky-byrne.co.uk

Whip Lashaway · Post by **Whip Lashaway** » 3 Jun 2012 6:00 pm

If you get an E9/B6 with the locking E knee lever, you have everything of both worlds. The lock allows you to put your left knee into another set of knee levers. Check out Bill Stafford's tuning. He has S14 but if you lose the 1 and 14 strings you end up with a S12. Only drawback, if you want to think it is, you have to raise the B up to D on the 9th string or lower E down to D on the 8th string. I've been playing this tuning since 1988 (basically). I have no complaints. FWIW...Whip

Ransom Beers · Post by **Ransom Beers** » 3 Jun 2012 6:08 pm

Karen you can go to the "Links" tab above & click on copedents & scroll down & B0B has listed a bunch of uni copedents.

“Universal” E9/B6

As the mechanisms of pedal steels evolved, some players devised ways to combine all of the changes of the E9th and C6th into a single 12-string neck. Called the Universal or U-12, this group of copedents typically uses a knee lever to change the string tuning from E9th to B6th (similar to C6th), and includes most of the pedals and knee levers from both necks of a D-10.
Reece Anderson’s 12-string universal Joe “Mac” McHam’s 12-string universal
Lee Baucum’s push-pull universal Danny Naccarato’s 12-string universal
Carl Dixon’s ultimate universal Michael Perlowin’s 12-string universal
Thijs Kappen’s 10-string universal Sierra Instruments for 12 or 14 strings

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 3 Jun 2012 6:32 pm

Whip, I'd say the lock shortchanges things, by locking some pockets out.
You can approach a Uni as a bimodal axe, or one neck with all the pockets provided.
Or perhaps I'm a goofball.

Micky Byrne · Post by **Micky Byrne** » 3 Jun 2012 8:51 pm

I totally agree with Lane...a Lock lever really limits you..even the great Maurice Anderson says that. It doesn't allow you the freedom to move between the 9th and 6th tunings.

Micky Byrne U.K.

www.micky-byrne.co.uk

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