String seperation , what's the remedy?

Ray Anderson · Post by **Ray Anderson** » 13 Dec 2011 2:49 pm

Hey all, I'm playing a Sho-bud Pro 111 through a Sho-bud amp with a sho-bud VP via a MXR carbon copy. According to this info about my gear, what can I do to get better string clarity,i.e amp setting or delay settings and such or is there something I need to add to my gear train to complete the circle? I would like for my higher string register"fret 18 to 24" in paticular to be more clear. All input appreciated.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 13 Dec 2011 4:26 pm

A Lil' Izzy or Izzy Plus/Match Box/Black Box/other Impedance Transformer.
Does WONDERS

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 13 Dec 2011 4:55 pm

Ditch the effects toys. Install a Truetone wound to 17.5K and use Jagwire nickel strings-Ricky Davis series. Set your strings 3 quarters width above the pickup. Use a JBL D130 in that 'bud amp, and don't crank your bass knob very high. String seperation all day long and all night, too. Whats a MXR carbon copy?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 13 Dec 2011 5:14 pm

Carbon Copy is an analog delay. Nice pedal. If you like delay. Currently overused, IMO. It is to now what the chorus was to 1983.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 13 Dec 2011 5:30 pm

Delay probably won't bother your string seperation at all. Too much reverb can run seperation together a little much, so moderation is good, then add more verb if you need it. The above is how I manage good string seperation on my fingertip--it might not be for everybody, but works for me pretty sweet. Technique will bring you along further yet--like string attack and such.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 13 Dec 2011 6:17 pm

Lane said:

Carbon Copy is an analog delay. Nice pedal. If you like delay. Currently overused, IMO. It is to now what the chorus was to 1983.

Finally, someone who thinks like I do. (Sorry Lane, had to say it. I hope your friends and family don't start dissing you now).

Jim Bates · Post by **Jim Bates** » 14 Dec 2011 6:30 pm

First put on some new strings (your choice). As said before, tuen off or do not plug in any effects. No reverb or other things. Unhook the volume pedal and plug cord fro gitar directly into amp. If it has two inputs, try both to see if there is any significant difference. I have a single channel Sho-Bud amp and agree that turning bass down to about 1/4th on (9 o'clock) is a good starting place. Try treble at 12 o'clock and try mids at 12 or less to get best you can. also try bright switch on and off. Another signal eater is the volume pedal. Try installing a small cap, 100 to 330 mmfd from the signal in to the signal out on the pedal and see if that clears up sound any.

also make sure you use good cords.

Happy testing.

Thanx,
Jim

Jim Bates · Post by **Jim Bates** » 14 Dec 2011 7:05 pm

First put on some new strings (your choice). As said before, tuen off or do not plug in any effects. No reverb or other things. Unhook the volume pedal and plug cord fro gitar directly into amp. If it has two inputs, try both to see if there is any significant difference. I have a single channel Sho-Bud amp and agree that turning bass down to about 1/4th on (9 o'clock) is a good starting place. Try treble at 12 o'clock and try mids at 12 or less to get best you can. also try bright switch on and off. Another signal eater is the volume pedal. Try installing a small cap, 100 to 330 mmfd from the signal in to the signal out on the pedal and see if that clears up sound any.

also make sure you use good cords.

Happy testing.

Thanx,
Jim

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 14 Dec 2011 7:24 pm

Part of your problem is in the design of the guitar. An impedance matcher would help as above.

Olli Haavisto · Post by **Olli Haavisto** » 23 Dec 2011 6:31 am

A good arrangement makes a song easier to mix. Same goes for string separation.
What inversions you use, how you spread them, taking into account what others are playing around you. Picking technique is a big part of the perceived string separation. A not-too-hot pup helps...

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 23 Dec 2011 7:13 am

VERY well said, Olli.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 25 Dec 2011 11:58 pm

A lot has to do with how hard you pick various strings in a grip to get a proper balance.You can't learn that - it's too abstract. It comes all by itself after about 20 years.A lot of guys never get that.It's one of the finer points of playing steel.Listen to Jerry Byrd and Buddy Emmons for what that's supposed to sound like.There's only 15 or 20 other players who come close to those masters in that regard.

John Roche · Post by **John Roche** » 26 Dec 2011 4:37 am

Could I have more info on the 330 mmfd from the signal in to the signal out .....

Jim Bates · Post by **Jim Bates** » 26 Dec 2011 9:34 am

It is simple to try out the volume pedal high frequency 'fix' I have used for many years.

Depending on which volume pedal you have open it up so you can see the input and out put jacks. Solder (or clip with small alligator clips) a very small capacitor (a 100, 220 or 330 mmfd disc cap. ) from the signal in jack of one to the signal out tip of the other jack. These ranges of caps have worked best for me on different vol. pedals, and even on volume controls on the guitar and amps. The smaller the cap, the higher the frequencies it will pass through to the amp. The 330mmf (pfd) was largest I had to tuse and it was for a Sho-Bud pedal, (I do not know the electronic reason, but it's simple and it works,)

Thanx,
Jim

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 26 Dec 2011 2:40 pm

It works because that's what capacitors DO. They block low frequencies and direct current, but allow higher frequencies to pass like a bare wire. If you choose the right value, the volume pedal blocks the fundamentals and first harmonic, maybe even the 2nd, but all the stuff we call "brightness" doesn't go through the pot, but takes the shortcut.
If you rock the pedal off and play, you'll hear bright silence.

Ray Anderson · Post by **Ray Anderson** » 26 Dec 2011 3:55 pm

O.K., Next question; If I use the capacitor on the volume pedal (and I do in fact use a Sho-Bud pedal) do I need an Impedance Transformer as recommended, or will this do the job as well? Do I need to do this to my Goodrich as well? Do I need to experiment with sizes or go directly to a 330?

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 26 Dec 2011 5:11 pm

and in teens transformer will resent the volume pedal from eating your fries.

I tried the dictation, now I will type.
An impedance transformer will prevent the volume pedal eating your highs. you have a black box, a Lil Izzy, or a matchbox, then you would not need the capacitor.

To answer your second question, that would be a matter of personal choice. I attended electronics school 30 years ago. I do not recall which effect different values would have. you could go straight to the 330, or try different values. as I recall, they are not very expensive

Jim Bates · Post by **Jim Bates** » 26 Dec 2011 7:09 pm

You won't know till you experiment with your setup.

Get all three values. Set the volume pedal about 1/3 to 1/2 way on and touch the wires of each to the terminals of the jacks. You should use a clothes pin or small alligator clip to hold the cap. so you do not become one big capacitor and skew the results.

You find a change you like or not, that;s the fun of experimenting.

Thanx,
Jim

Ray Anderson · Post by **Ray Anderson** » 26 Dec 2011 7:33 pm

Hey Thanks Guys I'm going to try the caps, that is a lot more cost friendly. I can save my money for something I really need......INSTRUCTION and LESSONS.

Clete Ritta · Post by **Clete Ritta** » 27 Dec 2011 2:15 am

Lane Gray wrote:Carbon Copy is an analog delay. Nice pedal. If you like delay. Currently overused, IMO. It is to now what the chorus was to 1983.

Its so overused, I dont use mine as much anymore! I still like the delay.
It has a chorus button. 1983 might not help your string separation, so leave it off.

Clete

Robert Harper · Post by **Robert Harper** » 27 Dec 2011 11:45 am

This has been my beef from day one. There is an impedance mismatch between the Amp and the Pedal. When I first started I tied a cap to the pedal and solved the issue. However, I dont believe this issue exsist with the newer Hilton Pedals. At least the new Hilton pedal is one of the best investments I have made. Now you guy are talking about the overuse of efects. I can believe this. Why, because as in everything men do if a little is good a lot is better. Kinda you size matters thing. So I picked for years, note I say pick, to let you guys know I dont consider myself a player, with no effects. I now use a delay for the sustain effect. I have been associated in and around electronics my entire life and get a real kick out of people adding distortion to an amp when money and engineering time have been spent to eliminate distortion from an amp. However, this brigs to mind what is the effect of the response of the amp to the higher frequencies or tones above the 15th fret. At what frequency is the amp most efficient at recreating the electonic signals produced by the higher frequences. Secondly. are pickups wound with the amp impedance in mind. Just something to think about when you decide to change pickups and relace 8 Ohm impedance with 4 ohm impedance speakers. impedance is not a new theory. Impedance is been in existance sinc they began desiging circuits that have resistors, caps and coils. People with better minds than mine and before computers dealt with impedance and the need to match different impedances together. I guess I better stop before I get offensive

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 27 Dec 2011 2:06 pm

I had a lot of trouble with getting good string seperation for quite some time until I moved up to a stronger amplifier and speaker. Getting good clean sound at the desired volume from the amp is important. Keeping the tone knobs in a moderate range can help illiminate distortion too. I'm not an electronics expert at all, so I can't comment too much, but I think getting a clean undistorted tone will help.

Jim Bates · Post by **Jim Bates** » 28 Dec 2011 6:43 am

Some of the first steel guitar instrumental ablums I got several years ago were by Herb Remington. He got great clean, sound with every string very clear. The secret was he was playing the Fender steels (much lower pickup impedance) which were plugged directly into the board at the recording studio.

The trend in pedal steel has been for a 'fatter' or 'fuller' sound. Maybe we should go for 'lean' and 'clean' also.

This is a good discussion topic.

Thanx,
Jim

Adam Goodale · Post by **Adam Goodale** » 28 Dec 2011 1:18 pm

Lane Gray wrote:Carbon Copy is an analog delay. Nice pedal. If you like delay. Currently overused, IMO. It is to now what the chorus was to 1983.

Too funny! and i have to completly agree with you!

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 28 Dec 2011 5:14 pm

This topic appears to be about electronics rather than the distance between strings on the instrument, so I've moved it.

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