A couple chord theory questions

[Lane Gray]

Stuff coming to mind from that other thread:

1: Buddy, and others, use a chord on the C6 neck as a substitute for the V, for the sake of discussion, I'll use key of F, so the following chord on the 4th fret gets used as C: strings 2-5 with P5 and P6, notes of Bb,
Db/C# (not sure which name fits),
E, and
A.
When played against the C, it works. What's going on and how does it work?

2: Often, or at least occasionally, you'll see a III (major) used on the way to the IV (See the second chord in the Dillards' "The Old Home Place" or behind "(badder than the) old King (Kong)" in Bad, Bad Leroy Brown).
This clearly ain't V/VI, since (in G, the customary key for both) the B doesn't resolve to E, but C.
So WTF is going on musically?

[chas smith R.I.P.]

Lane, question 1, substitute V chords can be a tritone away from the the original V chord, so, the substitute for a C7 would be a F#7. In your example, Bb(A#) is the 3rd, C# is the 5th and E is the dom 7th of F#7. You don't need the actual F# because the bass has it. (all you need to define a chord are the 3rd and 7th).

A very convenient VI-II-V turnaround, on the C6 neck, 5th fret key of F. VI chord is 5 pedal on the 6th fret, II is 5 pedal on the 5th fret, V is the 5 pedal on the 4th fret back up to F, on the 5th fret. The Ab7 subs for D7, to G7, the F#7 subs for C7 up to F.

Question 2. you have to think cycle V. All the turnarounds are based on cycle V. In C, the III is E, which is a 5th above A, which is a 5th above D, which is a 5th above G which is V above C.

[Lane Gray]

But how does Circle V apply when the song in question has no VI, nor for that matter, a vi?
Old Home Place chords:
G B C G G G D D
G B C G G D G G

BBLB chords, IIRC:
G G A A B C D G repeat ad infinitum.

I see no 6, VI being E in these. It almost seems more reasonable to call the B a stack of leading tones to the C, but that seems like an unsatisfactory exclamation.

[Brint Hannay]

I think theoretically the B would still be considered V of vi, even though it does not get resolved--in the same way that if a song ends on a hanging V chord it's still a V (of I).

Things like the B in your examples illustrate, IMHO, the awkwardness and sometimes limited usefulness of attempting to fit real-world music into the overly abstracted diatonic theory framework. My preference: just call it III--no need to call it "V of" anything.

[chas smith R.I.P.]

Oops, I dyslexia-ed IV for VI. The B is a "mediant" progression, which I think of as simply adding more color to a I-IV-V progression. I think of I-bVI-I as the "Las Vegas" progression also a mediant and of course there's I-bIIIM and I-VIM. There doesn't always have to be a text book explanation, sometimes it just sounds more interesting. And then, there was Sonny and Cher's, The Beat Goes ON, (not my favorite song) which didn't have any progression, it was 1 chord.

Back up to the substitute V chords. Since all you need to define a chord is the 3rd and 7th, E is the 3rd of C7 and the b7 of F#7. Bb(A#) is the b7 of C7 and the 3rd of F#7.

[chas smith R.I.P.]

the awkwardness and sometimes limited usefulness of attempting to fit real-world music into the overly abstracted diatonic theory framework.

There doesn't always have to be a text book explanation, sometimes it just sounds more interesting.

Apparently, Brint and I agree. I'm kind of embarrassed that I didn't see his reply before I typed in mine...it's been a long day.

[Daniel Morris]

Chas, I apologize for undoubtedly missing something here, but if you substitute an F#7 for a C7, how does that C# (F#7 fifth) mesh with the C natural (C7 root)? I understand using upper extensions (using a Gm against a C7), but I don't quite get using a C# when the root of the chord is C. Just passing chord tension?
Thanks for all your theory help on the Forum.

Anyone else care to set me straight on this?

[Earnest Bovine]

... on the C6 neck as a substitute for the V, for the sake of discussion, I'll use key of F, so the following chord on the 4th fret gets used as C: strings 2-5 with P5 and P6, notes of Bb,
Db/C# (not sure which name fits),
E, and
A.
When played against the C, it works. What's going on and how does it work?

The chord is C13 b9. I wouldn't call it an F# chord.
All those notes are in the F major scale except the D flat. So if you omit the D flat, you have a plain vanilla C13.

[Earnest Bovine]

, you'll see a III (major) used on the way to the IV

In traditional harmony, III is a minor chord. The major chord on that root is called V of VI. But it doesn't always resolve to VI. "Irregular resolutions" have been used a lot for hundreds of years. You see resolutions to IV in Bach for example.

[Rich Sullivan]

1. That chord is a C13b9, which is a really cool chord. (Bb=b7, Db=b9, E=3, A=13 or 6). It combines a 13th chord (Bb, E, A) with a diminished chord (Bb, Db, E), and both have a strong resolution to the tonic chord (F). As an aside, you don't need to sound the root or fifth in a dominant chord, so you can leave out the C and G tones and not lose anything. All of the necessary musical information in the chord is contained in the third and flatted seventh and then any other extensions, such as the flatted ninth and thirteenth used here.

2. There is a probably a better way to analyze the III to IV chord progression using music theory, but if you just look at the individual notes in the chord, one at a time, each one wants to resolve upward, as a leading tone. So the B resolves to C, the D# resolves to E, and the F# resolves to G, which gives you the B(III) to C(IV) progression.

[Rich Sullivan]

I see EB was posting while I was composing mine. Consider my post a duplicate of his.