Emmons lashley LeGrande changer broke last night- puzzled

Lynn Kasdorf · Post by **Lynn Kasdorf** » 10 Sep 2011 9:30 am

I had a weird thing happen last night on a gig. Suddenly, the changer on my 3rd string G# stopped working. The B pedal worked the other G# fine.

Coincident with the changer failure, the 3rd string went wayyy sharp- like up a tone and a half or more. Very weird. I was playing along and suddenly I noticed that the 3rd string was drastically out of tune. Then I noticed it wasn't moving at all.

Just now I looked at it and I'm confused. The part of the changer that has the 3 holes for raising is deflected more than the others. You can still move the pull rod and it will raise the string- but its starting point is different, if you know what I mean. In other words, it is starting from an already pulled position. So, the pedal doesn't move that pull rod enough to raise the string. I don't what could fail to cause this. Amazingly, I happen to have a spare changer finger (whatever it is called- one entire string's changer) for this guitar.

Gack- I guess I need to take the whole changer apart to see what is going on! I've never done this, but it doesn't look hard- just tedious.

Any ideas?

Leon Campbell · Post by **Leon Campbell** » 10 Sep 2011 9:45 am

Hey Lynn, It might be a string ball end in the changer, this could cause it, just a guess. Leon

George Crowder · Post by **George Crowder** » 10 Sep 2011 11:31 am

Lynn, you need to take your guitar and go see Billy Cooper at his shop near Orange, VA.

Lynn Kasdorf · Post by **Lynn Kasdorf** » 10 Sep 2011 11:39 am

George Crowder wrote:Lynn, you need to take your guitar and go see Billy Cooper at his shop near Orange, VA.

That would take all the challenge out of it! Actually, Billy's shop is a bit of a drive for me. If I want to have somebody work on it, I could take it to Paul Vendemmia, who is a lot closer. But I should be able to fix this myself (I'm a machinist). I posted mostly in the hope that some others with Emmons changer experience will know what the issue is from my description.

Lynn Kasdorf · Post by **Lynn Kasdorf** » 10 Sep 2011 11:40 am

Leon Campbell wrote:Hey Lynn, It might be a string ball end in the changer, this could cause it, just a guess. Leon

That is plausible. Gotta get in there with a magnifying glass and lots of light.

Mike Archer · Post by **Mike Archer** » 10 Sep 2011 3:04 pm

sounds like a broke string ball and part of a broke string got into the changer hanging it up
not going to say a changer couldnt break but ive never seen an emmons changer break....
sometimes you can flip the guitar over and it will fall out sometimes a pair of needle noise pliers
willfish it out
it usualy falls down on the return spring assembly
look down back of changer with a flash lite and see
Mike

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 10 Sep 2011 4:31 pm

"sounds like a broke string ball and part of a broke string got into the changer hanging it up "

Of course that's saying Lynn broke that string, and didn't retrieve the broken end. Surely he would remember that.

Lynn Kasdorf · Post by **Lynn Kasdorf** » 10 Sep 2011 4:45 pm

John Billings wrote:"sounds like a broke string ball and part of a broke string got into the changer hanging it up "

Of course that's saying Lynn broke that string, and didn't retrieve the broken end. Surely he would remember that.

...busted!

I know there have been times when a string broke in the heat of battle and I just slapped on a new one a fast as possible and didn't concern myself with the broken ball end. Maybe not such a good strategy, eh?

Lynn Kasdorf · Post by **Lynn Kasdorf** » 10 Sep 2011 5:04 pm

Hmm. I just now had a very close look and I can see no sign of a string ball or fragment. I guess there could still be in there behind something where I cannot see it, but I doubt it.

The changer is pretty gunky (oil and dust and crud), so it is probably due for a teardown and cleaning anyway. I have another Emmons (SKH) I can play while this one is down.

So- what is the best way to remove the rods and document so I can get it back together as it was? Seems like maybe removing the plastic tuning nuts might work. Otherwise, I'll have to mark the pull rods to show at what point they are locked into the bell crank.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 10 Sep 2011 6:19 pm

Lynn, I hope you keep us posted on what the problem was...kinda good to learn these things. Good luck with the teardown/cleaning/fix/assembly!

Bill Moore (RIP) · Post by **Bill Moore (RIP)** » 10 Sep 2011 7:38 pm

Lynn, before you tear the whole changer apart. you might just remove the string, pull rod and springs related to the problem finger. With nothing connected to it, you probably will be able to tell what is hanging up. On a lot of changers, the top piece, the actual bridge part, can move in front of the parts below it. Usually that can only happen if there is no string applying tension on that finger.

If you broke a string, it's possible you may have accidentally pushed that part out of position. With the spring off, you may have to shift the the parts forward, as if you were raising the string, at some point, the top part will be able to clear the lower parts, and be in it's correct location. Then replace the spring, string and pull rods.

Russ Wever · Post by **Russ Wever** » 10 Sep 2011 8:56 pm

Coincident with the changer failure, the 3rd string went
wayyy sharp- like up a tone and a half or more.

Awesome - that must be, like, a mighty
strong 3rd string, that can make it all
the way up to a B natural (or more)!
~Rw

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 10 Sep 2011 9:22 pm

I agree with Russ about the exceptional 3rd string.

But in my opinion, without additional information or seeing pictures. I think Bill Moore is on the right track.

bb

Lynn Kasdorf · Post by **Lynn Kasdorf** » 11 Sep 2011 6:00 am

Awesome - that must be, like, a mighty
strong 3rd string, that can make it all
the way up to a B natural (or more)!
~Rw

Good point- it couldn't have gone up that much. I quickly tuned it back down to G# so I could keep playing. All I recall is that it was way up there.

BTW I use a Jagwire .0115 on the g# and it never breaks anymore! I love these strings! .0115 seems to be the perfect gauge for the 3rd string. And I play a lot of Ralph Mooney type stuff, so I'm constantly bouncing that B pedal. The 3rd string just keeps going and going...

At this point I have removed the string and the pull rod and moved the changer finger back and forth. Nothing in there. I have a feeling that maybe there was a ball end in there and it has fallen out. I'll put it back together and see if it has healed itself

Bill Moore (RIP) · Post by **Bill Moore (RIP)** » 11 Sep 2011 8:32 am

Lynn, because you say the string went way sharp, leads me to think that the scissors part of the changer moved too far forward, and the bridge part got in front of it. Remove the return spring, then you can tell if the raise part of the scissor is out of place. If so, move the scissors parts forward, while moving the bridge part, until it goes back where it should be. I don't know the reason the raise went too far, usually, it will happen when the string is off. But that is what will allow enough clearance for the bridge part to move out of place.

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 11 Sep 2011 8:50 am

Lynn,

I think that the diagnosis of something stuck in the changer or a finger slipped out of alignment is correct.

I did want to respond to your question about how to keep track of everything if you did tear down the guitar. First, take some pictures of where everything is. Then make a rodding chart for your guitar. there is a section on rodding theory and some blank charts are available at:

http://www.steelguitar.com/rodding.html

IMHO everyone should keep a current rodding chart of their guitar....

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 11 Sep 2011 6:41 pm

Yes, to Bill Moore's and Mike Nolan's last post.

because you say the string went way sharp, leads me to think that the scissors part of the changer moved too far forward, and the bridge part got in front of it

Then follow directions.

bb

Bill Ford · Post by **Bill Ford** » 13 Sep 2011 4:28 am

Lynn Kasdorf wrote:
So- what is the best way to remove the rods and document so I can get it back together as it was? Seems like maybe removing the plastic tuning nuts might work. Otherwise, I'll have to mark the pull rods to show at what point they are locked into the bell crank.

Lynn, If you have a digital camera, take pictures from every angle, also make a chart of where the rods are positioned,which hole in the changer to which hole in the bellcrank. Don't remove the tuner nuts, just leave a little slack in them when you reinstall the rods.

BF

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 13 Sep 2011 8:59 am

I had the same thing happen to an Emmons LeGrand on the B string. Turned out that the stop had a grove in it about one eight of an inch and the changer was going in and out of the grove. This was one of the guitars that I had when I first started playing and at time my foot would slip off pedal causing the changer to pop back into place which I think caused the problem. Some of the earlier Emmons LeGrand guitars had this problem because the metal in the stop was giving way causing grooves which made tuning a problem, espicially if your foot slips off a pedal.---Henry