upgrading practice/recording amp-tubes or SS PSG amp?

Benjamin Jayne · Post by **Benjamin Jayne** » 21 Feb 2011 6:27 pm

I'm looking to upgrade my amp for my PSG. I am just starting out and don't plan on playing outside of my bedroom for quite some time. I'm currently using my Fender frontman 15 that I had left over from my 6-string, along with a digitech RP150 for reverb/delay, and it gets the job done, but I really want to turn up the tone a bit, especially so I can start recording to share with my family and friends and to improve my ear, but I feel like I'm missing out by playing through a guitar amp.

My question is, what amps should I be looking for? My budget is a bit tight-probably $350 at most (for a USED model). I have a limited knowledge of amplifiers, and an even more limited knowledge of how the PSG will sound in different amps. I read a lot of people plugging the use of small tube amps, while others prefer the Nashville 112/fender steel king classic PSG amps. What are the different characteristics of both? Would buying a tube pre-amp instead have any benefits? What are the best small tube amps I could find used for under $350? I'm thinking of checking out some pawn shops and doing some online searching, so I might come across some deals, but I don't know what makes and models I should be looking for. I doubt I'll be able to hook up my steel to the amp to try it out before buying, so I am hoping for some direction and opinions about the best affordable, small SS amp, or small tube amp for PSG.

In case it matters, I'm playing E9 through humbucker pickups and have a Goodrich 10K VP and the RP150

Thanks everyone,

Ben

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 21 Feb 2011 6:55 pm

A used Fender Blues Jr. may satisfy.

Brad

Benjamin Jayne · Post by **Benjamin Jayne** » 21 Feb 2011 7:13 pm

Brad Sarno wrote:A used Fender Blues Jr. may satisfy.

Brad

Thanks Brad-looks like a nice amp. Is 12"/15watts as "small" as you'd go to get a full tube sound? I realize the "bigger" I go, the more "empty" the amp will sound at the levels I'll be playing when practicing. I've seen a very small tube amp made by fender available for $100 used. I think it's the Champion 600-is this TOO small/weak for the clean sound we're looking for with the PSG? Is there a simple mod (new speaker/tubes) that could make this amp reasonable as a step above the Fender frontman 15?

Is the Blues Jr preferable to the Fender Hot Rod Deluxe? I'm more familiar with that one from my 6-string days, but if I remember correctly it's more sought after for its overdrive/distortion.
Let me put my question another way-what small amps (tube or otherwise) would you snatch up right away if you found it available on craigslist or something for less than $350 when looking for a PSG amp? I don't EXPECT To find a steal of a deal, but I wouldn't even know a decent small amp for PSG if it landed in my lap!

Bobby Snell · Post by **Bobby Snell** » 21 Feb 2011 9:15 pm

What size speaker are you using? Upgrading to a 12- or 15" might get you closer to the tone you want than anything else first.

Benjamin Jayne · Post by **Benjamin Jayne** » 21 Feb 2011 9:25 pm

All I'm using is a fender frontman 15-it's only 8". I imagine ANYTHING would be better than that, but I just wasn't sure if a 8" or 10" tube amp would be worth making a change (Epiphone Valve Jr., Fender champion 600, etc) or if I should spend a bit more and go with a 12"-15." Are most in agreement that a small tube amp (Fender Blues Jr) is superior to a similarly priced SS amp that is voiced for steel? Would I have to modify the Blues Jr at all to make it sound right?

I found one on CL for $250 that says the reverb doesn't work-I have the logitech RP150 with lexicon reverb, so would I really miss the amp's reverb? Would it likely be easy to fix?

Benjamin Jayne · Post by **Benjamin Jayne** » 21 Feb 2011 9:38 pm

Any opinions on a Peavy valve king 112? This is a tube amp that seems to be popular with steel players. Better/worse than a Nashville 112?

Jim Peter · Post by **Jim Peter** » 22 Feb 2011 9:41 am

Benjamin,

I can't comment on the Nashville 112 but I do have a Valve King 112 that I play my steel through. I use it mainly for around the house and small venues and I am quite happy with the sound that I get from it.

Jim

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 22 Feb 2011 12:41 pm

Ben,

I did a series of recordings of pedal steel with the Blues Jr, Princeton, Deluxe Reverb, Vibro Champ, Super Champ XD, Dual Showman etc. Here's the links to some sound samples and more info:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Blues%20Juni ... Tweed.html

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Princeton%20 ... everb.html

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Deluxe%20Rev ... everb.html

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Vibro%20Cham ... Champ.html

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Super%20Cham ... %20XD.html

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Dual%20Showm ... owman.html

For my money, I'd avoid anything with less than a 12" speaker unless you have an extension cab with a 12" or 15" speaker in it.

For used practice amps I favor the Peavey Nashville 400 (can double as a gig amp or backup) or at least a Deluxe Reverb or a Princeton with a 12" speaker.

Whatever you buy, you won't enjoy practicing much if the amp's tone is mot pleasing to your ears!

Greg

Benjamin Jayne · Post by **Benjamin Jayne** » 22 Feb 2011 1:34 pm

Wow, Greg-those recordings are really helpful to discover the difference between these fender amps. I have to agree with you, the deluxe reverb is by far the best sounding amp that you tried (although they all sound better than my current SS amp). It's unfortunately out of my price range right now, but now I know what to watch for. I think I'd be satisfied with any of these amps for now, but it makes sense to save up for the ones with a larger speaker and a mid tone control.

I haven't seen many Peavy Nashville 400's availalbe, but they sound like great steel-voiced amps. Are they vastly superior to the Nashville 112s?

Any other opinions about good, small, affordable tube/SS amps for steel?

Benjamin Jayne · Post by **Benjamin Jayne** » 22 Feb 2011 9:40 pm

I found a Fender Princeton (NOT Princeton reverb) for under $200 used. If I'm using my processor's lexicon reverb anyway, is the sound going to be fundamentally the same?

Benjamin Jayne · Post by **Benjamin Jayne** » 22 Feb 2011 9:42 pm

NM princeton is a SS (112)

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 23 Feb 2011 8:19 am

Which Fender Princeton is it ? If its a 70's tube one buy it right away. Its worth way more and sounds great. Not as loud as a similar vintage princeton reverb but a great amp. If its one of those red knob or goofy marketing experiment amps then it might be okay.
Honestly any amp with a little more to it than what you currently have will work fine for practicing at home. When you are first learning how to play fixing tone with outboard gear and amps is a waste of time.

Benjamin Jayne · Post by **Benjamin Jayne** » 23 Feb 2011 8:38 am

What about a Carvin Vintage 16? Found one nearby me on CL for $250. It has a 12" GT12 speaker, three 12AX7 pretubes and two EL84 power tubes. I don't mind replacing tubes if necessary, but this is larger than the fender B.J. Any idea how it sounds for steel?

Lana Carroll · Post by **Lana Carroll** » 24 Feb 2011 11:14 am

I'd recommend (or second?) the NV 400 w/ the Fox mods. Its a pretty affordable amp and I think they sound pretty good. I personally don't like the sound of the 112 or the 1000 as much.

Usually when I see princetons on Craigslist here in NYC, its a solid-state version. I have a solid state Princeton Chorus that I used for steel when I was first starting, and it REALLY does not sound like an old tube Princeton reverb.

I wouldnt recommend it if you're looking for good steel tone.

I'm kind of a beginner still, but I love to try different amps and learn about what sounds good and what doesn't. Currently the set-up I am using is a Fender Twin head with an Evans 15" cab. It is the best sound I have ever gotten from any equipment ever. But Twins are not the cheapest, and they definitely aren't good for playing quietly.

Benjamin Jayne · Post by **Benjamin Jayne** » 26 Feb 2011 12:57 pm

for anyone interested, I decided to go with the Carvin Vintage 16. This will not be the last amp I buy, and I needed something SMALL and relatively quiet for practicing in my apartment, and I didn't want to spend a lot of money. I got the opportunity to try out my guitar with this amp before buying it, and I absolutely fell in love with the tube amp sound. I know it's not for everyone, but wow...I can't get enough of that tiny bit of distortion and warm resonance. Using this amp for 2 practice sessions, I've already noticed an enhancement of my enjoyment of playing, and I think it's more than the novelty-it honestly sounds incredibly more full and gives me some nice options with the EQ, 5watt triode mode, etc. The reverb is really great for my needs, AND it turns out the amp had the Celestian 30 12" speaker, which means I won't have to upgrade it.

Once I start playing in a band or something, I'll spend the $500+ for a "performance" amp like a Nashville 1000 or a Fender Princeton reverb, but for now, I'm really happy with my little Carvin Vintage 16.

BTW, I've been fascinated with the sound of tube amps ever since purchasing this amp...can anyone point me in the direction of some excellent recordings with tube amps...PSG or otherwise? I'm especially intrigued in its use for blues, but I haven't found many pedal steel blues recordings.

John Wilson · Post by **John Wilson** » 25 Mar 2011 6:23 pm

Benjamin,

If you want your Vintage 16 to shine, try running it through an external extension cab. The cabinet on the amp is quite small, and it opens up when you have a cab with more space. 12" speakers sound great, but I run my (BMI S-10) to the V-16 through a 15" DIY Weber (Chicago model) speaker cab. Very, very nice.
This little amp also loves pedals in front and it will serve you well for all but the loudest gigs. The 16 watt setting puts out a pretty loud signal.

John

The Steel Guitar Forum

upgrading practice/recording amp-tubes or SS PSG amp?

upgrading practice/recording amp-tubes or SS PSG amp?

amps

Try an external cab.....